Welcome to A Breath of Fresh Air with Sandy Kaye. Hello my friends, I’m sure you’re going to be very glad you tuned in today because I’ve got a wonderful story to share with you. You likely don’t know the name William Franklin Guest, but if I tell you he was an original member of the iconic, soulful, multi-Grammy winning group Gladys Knight and the Pips, then I bet I’ve captured your interest.
Sadly, William’s no longer with us, but his sister-in-law, Lady Diana Ziegler, spent several years interviewing him before his death to record his legacy. The book she’s produced as a result is called Midnight Train from Georgia and it tells the story about the bonds of family, love, church and music. It chronicles the incredible rise of Gladys Knight and the Pips from their origins singing in a small Atlanta church to their induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
I really hope you enjoy it. It’s written from the experience and eyes of my brother-in-law, William Franklin Guest, who married my sister. He’s been in my life since I was 11 years old, so not only did I write the story, I lived it.
This story has not been told. I mean, it is a story that has so many different facets, I think, that we need right now. It’s a children’s age of passage of young kids having a dream, wanting to just sing.
It starts with my late brother-in-law because he passed in 2015, but he would say that he was singing and dancing in the womb because he came from a family of singers. As a little child, he would be on the back porch with his grandmother, his mother, father, uncle. His uncle would be playing the guitar.
His grandmother, Mama Tilly, would be singing and playing music. Mama Margaret, we all call each other all of the mothers, Mama this, Mama that, would be dancing. All of the neighbors from the surrounding community would come and hear the Guest family just entertain.
It wasn’t anything special. It could be any night. I could tell you that’s what we did coming up, too.
We created fun and music. That coming of age for him, just as telling children’s stories, the things that they get involved in, how they got involved in school, what people don’t know much about is that the Pips, the original group, because everybody knows Gladys Knight and the Pips, but the Pips was the original group that started with William Guest, my brother-in-law, his sister Eleanor Knight, Gladys Knight, her brother Bubba Knight, and sister Brenda Knight. I’ll come a-runnin’ to you, with all my love.
There’s nothing in the world that I wouldn’t do for you, with all my love. With all my love. With all my love.
With all my love. With all my love. Oh, with all my love, I’ll come a-runnin’ to you, with all my love.
They always contend that that was the best group, because they started in the church choir, Mount Moriah Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia. Also, they were related, so they were cousins. The mother of Gladys, Mama Knight, and Father Merrill Knight, Sr., they sang in the adult choir, and then the kids sang in the youth choir.
But how they became a group, they were singing gospel, but how they became a group was because of Bubba’s 10th birthday party, and they didn’t have any music, but they invited Garfield down the street, a little boy, who had a record player. In those days, the kids would not even understand what most things, and you had it on a handle, and you could bring and have a little needle and play 45 records. He brought over his record player so they could dance and sing.
Well, he had to go home early, and they didn’t have any more music. So Gladys, William, Eleanor, Bubba, and Brenda, they just started singing and making their own entertainment. In doing that, the parents who were in the next room, it suddenly dawned on them, wow, they sing great together.
Wait a minute, let me look inside. Wait a minute, wait a minute, y’all. No, it couldn’t be, couldn’t be, couldn’t be, couldn’t be from a guy, because he brought me, yeah, Lord, Lord.
Yes, he did. I said he brought me. He said he did.
Yes, he did. A letter full of tears. I thought we had a love so strong.
Oh, yes, we did now. A love so strong. It would take a lifetime to break us apart, but I found out today I was, oh, yes, I was, and my reward, my reward, my rather broken heart.
That’s how the group first was formed, and they started singing around the area of Atlanta, and then started getting requests just to back up when my brother-in-law and his sister went to school. They didn’t even know how to play instruments. He was given a horn, and his sister Eleanor was given a clarinet.
He just started blowing it and playing it, and just think about that. They had heard these musical notes all of these years, and on top of that, his grandmother, Mama Tilly, he learned how to sing harmony in the kitchen while she was cooking. She would teach him various harmonies to sing with her.
I’ve ever, ever, ever seen a girl that didn’t look 15. How did they call themselves the Pips? Where did they get that name from? The Pips, they had a cousin called Pip, and it’s so funny, and that’s in the book, too. He became their manager.
They started getting requests to sing around Atlanta and around Georgia, and he sort of acted as their manager. He was young, too, but a little older than them, so when it came time, they had to have a name because they kept getting these requests, and they didn’t have any name, and they decided, well, let’s name the group after cousin Pip. That’s how they became the Pips.
Now, it became Gladys Knight, and the Pips is a whole other story. I definitely want to know about that, too, but at the time, the Pips were already entering talent competitions around town. Is that right? Yes, they were.
They were so good that they were getting requests to sing at various events and also gospel events. They did not get rid of those gospel roots, but at various club events, they didn’t have to really do that much competing because they just sort of spiraled up. As a result, by the time they got to be teens, the parents started really taking them out because it was not only then Atlanta, Georgia, it was the surrounding area of Georgia, and then maybe Alabama, so on and so forth, because they were still going to school.
They were just that good. They had their first hit single in 1959 that was Every Beat of My Heart. Yeah, they had recorded Whistle My Love Prior by the Pips.
Now, the story about Every Beat of My Heart, because that’s how the group became Gladys Knight and the Pips. There’s a backstory with that. They were playing and performing, and then the owner of what was called the Builders Club decided that they wanted them to come and try out this equipment, have some recording equipment.
Let’s just see how it sounds. Why don’t you all come over and let’s just record something? Little did they know that he was going to put that record out. Literally, my brother-in-law was walking down the street and heard the song playing in a record shop, and he realized, that’s us.
So he calls Bubba and says, our record is out, and Bubba says, I know, we heard it. Well, he had put out the record without them even knowing it, and that was problematic under the Pips. That record got all the way up to New York City to Bobby Robinson, who had a company at that time, and Bobby Robinson was interested in that record.
Bobby Robinson brought them to New York and was interested in that song, but they hadn’t signed with anyone, so they signed with Bobby Robinson. But to distinguish between the two songs, because they recorded it over, they then named the group Gladys Knight and the Pips, and that’s how she became the lead singer, because all of them were lead singers prior. But that’s how they got ripped off, and then they went to New York, re-recorded it, and then Every Beat of My Heart became a major hit record.
Sounds like they got ripped off for the second time with her name being on there. Were they unhappy with that? No, no, no, they weren’t. They’re family, so they decided as a group, they did everything as a group.
Before each performance, they prayed, they split their money evenly down among all of them, so it was not a problem because she was singing the lead on that song in the first place. They just decided to, let’s change the name and make it Gladys Knight and the Pips and just put her out front. Now, there were times and different songs that they just had different kinds of leads where they could still sing in the visual, but the group sort of mushroomed and evolved as Gladys Knight and the Pips.
And of course, after the Bobby Robinson fiasco, because that’s when they really got ripped off. I mean, during that time is when to them being in New York, and my mother actually knew Bobby Robinson, and that’s how my sister and brother-in-law met, because she went to one of the recording sessions. They were still young and brought my sister along, who was like 15, 16 at the time, and he got a little crush, and they started talking.
That’s how they met. And then all of our families kind of blended. When you really love someone, giving up is hard to do.
When you still depend upon them. His warm and tender touch, his kiss and his caress, that used to mean so much and bring you happiness. They stayed in New York and they started performing at the Apollo, staying at the iconic Hotel Teresa, etc.
Well, it got to the point where Bobby Robinson was really ripping them off, you know, but that was the age of music, the late 50s and 60s. Now, it wasn’t just their story. Most of the entertainers got ripped off because they didn’t really know the business.
It was not like the business today that you can just put something on social media and just become a giant. They had to work their way up through royalties, not knowing anything about the business. So when they bought you all these nice new clothes and new suits, etc., when it came time then to pay their salaries, the manager said, oh, well, you remember those suits we bought and the transportation and stuff like that.
A lot of the groups were being ripped off. So while they had hit records, they weren’t making any money.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. Things changed because, thank goodness, they ended up meeting Marguerite Mays, the wife, or the former wife of the baseball player, Willie Mays.
She became their manager. And that’s when things changed. There’s a whole chapter in the book that is called Polishing Up Their Act.
She basically took them out of Harlem, moved them into Long Island. Eleanor and Gladys’ sister, Brenda, they decided they wanted to get married and have children. So they left the group.
Gladys was actually married to Jimmie Newman, who was the saxophone player in the group. But she got pregnant, and so she went home for a while. And then they invited the other cousin, Edward.
He sort of came in. There was a little time when the guys were by themselves as just the pips. I got my love in me, right here in front of me, the moment that I saw you.
I think that it’s the best, I’m gonna love it less, you make me feel brand new. At last, at last, my search is over. At last, at last, at last, baby came my way.
Nothing ever really happened there. But when you do the thing you do, you’re my lady. When Marguerite Mays came into the picture, because Gladys had gone home to have her first child, she called Gladys and said, look, the group is fine, but I think that this group would be much bigger, much greater if you came back and you all become the group Gladys Knight and the Pips.
So she basically not only took over their management, but also introduced them to Charlie Atkins. Charlie Atkins and Honey Cole, I don’t know if you know about the tap dancers in the 40s, they were really giant tap dancers, which is why the Pips are known for their very precision steps and their choreography. Charlie Atkins took them and he used to just hit on a can and have them just dealing with rhythms and rhythm and rhythm and dealing with these steps.
And that’s how they really got into those dance routines. But come along Motown Records because they stayed with Marguerite Mays for a while and then she took them as far as she could take them. And then Motown Records got interested.
They would have what’s called the Motown Reviews. All of the groups used to meet each other either at the Apollo, the Uptown in Philadelphia, you know, whatever the different things were. So what were the reviews that the groups would all go there and Motown would try and assess who they wanted to sign and who they didn’t? Well, Barry Gordy would decide who he wanted to sign.
And the Pips were spiraling up. They were already, even without Motown, they were getting their hit records. And one fact is Gladys was the only one out of the group who didn’t want to go to Motown.
She didn’t because she thought that she would get lost with Diana Ross and the Supremes, the Marvelettes. There were so many iconic women groups. She didn’t want to sink under that and she was concerned if Barry Gordy would give them the same attention that Diana Ross and the Supremes got, et cetera, et cetera.
Get on board the friendship train Everybody shake a hand, shake a hand People are talking about the friendship train Everybody shake a hand, make a friend Listen to what’s next They negotiated for a bit and all of them made their decisions together as a group. So she got outvoted by the three guys. They wanted to go to Motown because they saw Motown was it in the 60s.
The music that was coming out of Motown and the groups, it was hit after hit after hit. So they went to Motown in 66 and moved to Detroit. But they were only there just a year before they had their next big hit with Motown that day.
Yes. Like I said, they went there in 66. I heard it through the grapevine because Marvin Gaye had really sort of recorded that first but it wasn’t a hit.
Gladys Knight and the Pips recorded it skyrocketed it. It took me by surprise Cause I must say, to be honest Listen to what I’m saying That’s one of their best known hits. I mean, they have many but they weren’t there long and they kept performing and going on the road.
After a few years, they wanted to renegotiate their contract and Barry Gordy did not necessarily want to give them what they wanted because he was a giant. He said, I got everybody. So no, you need to come with me.
But they says, no, we’re kind of a giant ourselves. And that’s how actually they moved over to Buddha Records because then Buddha Records could concentrate just on them. That’s when Midnight Train to Georgia came out.
Too much for the man So he’s leaving the life he’s come to know He said he’s going He said he’s going back to find What’s left of his world, the world he left behind Not so long ago, he’s leaving Oh, Midnight Train to Georgia He said he’s going back To a simpler place in time Oh, yes he is He said he’s going back I’d rather live in his world That became the major hit and they started the American music was it started winning the Grammys So they just went into another dimension after they got to Buddha Records How did they maintain their equilibrium as a group as cousins and their egos at that time? I can imagine as young kids that had come from nothing and were rising up as such high flying stars that might have had some impact on them personally, did it? Well, you know, I always say that this is a book about faith, family and love and harmony was more than music. It was spirit. So them coming from Georgia, growing up as kids as a family and praying together, they were close.
They were together 37 years before the group broke up. So the fact that they were family, number one, not saying that they didn’t have disagreements because, you know, when the group split up in 89 there were different things that they had their own agendas and they wanted to do. But for that particular time for those years, they made their decisions all together Everything was voted on and the highest number one and then the other person would just have to fall in line But it was really the family and the love for each other, that was the glue that kept them together That closeness of that time and that faith, they grew up in the church together.
So there was just some things that were intrinsic and then where they understood their place and the spirituality, I think that that’s what kept them together. We’re talking about the early 70s now when they’re with Buddha Records and they start to have a whole string of hits of course including Midnight Train to Georgia. Who was writing all their material? They had different commercial writers at that point.
Various hit writers that they would just bring in and write the music from a variety of different, I mean I was in the music business back in that time. I had a number one hit song Time Moves On by Strut back in 75 So at that time it was like, okay, who had the hit songs? And sometimes they would just bring them the music, we want you to record this The companies said, oh, I want you to cover this record or someone has just written this record so we want you all to sing it. So they weren’t writing their own music.
If they were writing their own music, they could have really had a great mint still. So even with all those hits including Best Thing That Ever Happened To Me, I’ve Gotta Use My Imagination, which was a huge one, were they not making very much money out of all of these? Oh no, they were making a lot of money by then but I’m just saying, just knowing as a songwriter myself that ended up hopping back in school that as far as the artists, the radio, the plays and stuff like that you own your publishing and you wrote your own songs then the royalties would come But fate spit that down, I guess you could say, oh I guess you could say It’s all for you Should have arrived, my life’s story can’t be Midnight Train To Georgia comes along, I think it was 1973 or 1974 and it’s a huge hit it’s a number one single and it wins a Grammy Award How are they feeling about that, their first Grammy? They loved it. By that time, they were really all the way on top.
I mean, they were doing film tracks things were just coming. The 60s and the 70s you know, that was just that time of music, things were just coming and they were still young and then playing the Waldorf and the various big hotels they sort of were the headline of groups for that.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. They were going all over the world and they made a lot of money.
Later on in my brother-in-law’s life, before his death, he was still trying to write. You know, he was a songwriter. He was a great songwriter.
And his writing songs when they were pips young that just kind of helped them to get over the hump when they were waiting for Gladys to have the baby and stuff like that. Early on, that was the bridge that kept them going. They’re on top of the world with Midnight Train to Georgia.
I think it was number one right around the world and they’re touring that everywhere. How do they move forward from there? I mean, where do you go to stay at the top? How do you have another number one to follow? Well, they still had, like you mentioned, Imagination. That was a major hit album with a lot of hit songs.
Once you got to that point and you had the audience, it wasn’t that hard. You had a bullet, what they used to call it, a number one with a bullet or the little red thing. Your record would go up.
They had already established themselves. They were having hit after hit after hit. What happened down the road was they’re at Buda.
At one time, they were signed to three different contracts. Gladys was signed to Columbia by herself. The Pips were signed to Casablanca and Gladys Knight and the Pips were signed to Buda because by that time, they started wanting to do some of their own thing, which eventually led to the breakup of the group.
Before they got inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame like in 94, but they broke up like in 89. So they were trying to come to some kind of conclusion of where they’re going to go with them. But by that time, you have Gladys, and she has various things.
She has gotten, I don’t know if she’s on her third marriage or something like that. Edward Patton starts becoming ill. In fact, he was in a wheelchair when they got inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Various things started happening with them personally. And even though you don’t want to say, but families sometimes pull you in in different directions. And that’s what happened.
He would say that they had different goals. William and Edward, they formed Patton and Guest Productions, and they were doing their own thing. They had tofu ice cream, and they also funded dancing battles.
Gladys started doing her own thing. Gladys and Bubba started doing things separately from William and Edward, and they just started having different goals. That’s how, by 1989, coupled with the illness of Edward, then the group broke up after 37 years.
Scattered pictures of the smiles we left behind Smiles we gave to one another For the way we were Ah, can it be that it was all so simple then Oh, has time rewritten every line And if we had the chance to do it all again Tell me, would we, could we Memories may be beautiful again But too painful to remember We simply choose to forget So it’s the last time We will remember When I know we remember Was it an amicable split? Well, I guess it was amicable, if you can use that word. I mean, the love did not go. I think that until my brother-in-law’s death, I think that he carried that burden.
I mean, if you think 37 years, and you’ve been standing by and dancing with someone for that long time, it was a big gap. Edward passed, and William was trying to get Bubba and he to start singing together almost like a Sam and Dave from way back. They started the project and never finished it.
So he was still trying to his death to keep the music going. It’s sad to think We’re gonna make it Well, we just can’t fake it For some ungodly reason We just won’t let it die Yes, neither one of us Neither one of us Wants to be the first to say goodbye And we Say thanks So we know Wants to be the first to say The book was about leaving a legacy because those last seven years, He never wanted to do anything to stain this group. I always called this group an apple pie group.
There were no scandals. There were none of those things. So even though there was a little pain about the split and all of that, that was all internalized.
They continued to go out, and whenever they had to be together, they showed up. And that’s the way family, faith, and love play out. Yes, I hear you.
In saying that, though, it sounds like William actually was quite disappointed both at the split of the group and that he couldn’t reignite the sound after that. Yeah, he was disappointed. That was his whole life.
He didn’t know anything other than that from a little boy. And what he did was manage other groups. The Stub Girls, Levi Stubbs of Four Tops, his nieces, and, you know, try to massage that legacy a little bit through his own life and touching other artists.
What sort of a man was he? How would you describe William Gist? Oh, he was a wonderful person. Big personality. Huge personality.
So funny. Great storyteller. And not only that, he was a man who had a love for family.
From 11 years old, he would have me by the hand. He would tell my mother, Mama, let her come with us. A funny guy who told so many stories.
He kept us laughing. He wanted to always bring joy and bring light. Don’t wanna do wrong But you’ve been gone so long And I hope, I hope you’ll understand That it’s really, it’s really, oh yes it is It’s out of my hands But I don’t wanna do wrong I don’t wanna do wrong But it’s been so long Oh, it’s been so long I just can’t help myself No, no, no Mmm Since you’ve been away Since you’ve been away I’ve been praying every day I’ve been praying every day God, you make me strong Till you get back home No, no, no, no I don’t wanna do Well, my heart keeps telling me to And though I’ve tried with all my might I think I’ve lost this fight I don’t wanna do wrong I don’t wanna do wrong But it’s been so long Oh, oh, oh We all know what Gladys Knight went on to do.
She’s still out there performing today. What about Bubba Knight? He continued to oversee his sister’s career, didn’t he? He didn’t oversee her career because her husband came into effect then. Bubba is still living out here in Las Vegas.
She will perform every now and then but not much at all. Are you resentful that William didn’t join Gladys right up until his death? That he wasn’t a part of her successes going forward? Well, they were successful. She wouldn’t have been successful without the Pips.
You know, so there would not be any group without the Pips. So, no, I’m not resentful at all. I mean, again, it’s family, faith, and love.
I feel the same way. You know, they raised me too. So I wish Gladys the success in her life and he wished her the success on.
My goal with this book is to tell the story, spread the legacy, and let people know who they were. They were all successful. And the music lives on.
But I can say this, when Gladys performs on stage and have background singers, everybody knows it’s not the Pips. If you’re lost I’ll be here When you seem to be With so much affection You fill me up with so much affection And you make me realize Make me realize We can move in the right direction We can move in the right direction Make a love, make a love Make a love, make a love Here we go Lady Diana Ziegler, the journey has been amazing. I love the title of the book, Midnight Train from Georgia, because that’s exactly the story of their lives.
Congratulations to you. It’s a fabulous read. It’s a wonderful story.
Well, thank you so much. I’ve been blessed. Why did you decide to do William’s story? Is it because you were so close with him that you wanted to put it down and leave it as a legacy? Yeah.
And because of the family love, as I said, but I had not thought about it. But when he started getting ill, I wanted to capture his story. He really, really wanted people to learn from his life.
He wanted to leave a legacy, number one, to let people know about the business, what they went through, perhaps not do some of the things that he did, learn from his mistakes and leave some wisdom behind for young people coming through on this journey. I thought that it’s just time to tell the story and I wish somebody would tell it on screen. That’s what I’m hoping for, that there’s an interest because it will make a great film.
Wouldn’t it? With all those dance moves and all those sensational songs. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much.
It’s a beautiful day You’ve been listening to A Breath of Fresh Air with Sandy Kang. Beautiful day That you’re going away It’s a beautiful day