Transcript: Transcript 1980’s pop sensation Nik Kershaw – from Bristol to stardom



Hi, thanks so much for joining me today. Before we get into the show, I’d just like to say a really big thank you for both your emails and your social media messages telling me how much you’re enjoying a breath of fresh air. It’s really heartening to hear from you. And I’m grateful for all of your great suggestions. I want you to know that I am pursuing each one relentlessly so that we can shine a light on your favorite artists very soon. For those who may have just tuned in, please feel free to reach out to me with your comments or guests suggestions for artists that hail from the 60s 70s or 80s You can do that through the website a breath of fresh dot A you now coming up a very special guest from the 80s He’s English singer, songwriter, musician and producer Nik Kershaw or, if you can’t quite place the name, you’ll probably recognize him from this song.


Nik exploded onto the UK pop scene in 1984 as a solo artist, he had a string of global hit singles, and he performed at Live Aid. After stepping out of the limelight to concentrate on writing and producing. Nick wrote Chesney Hawkes huge hit the one and only and he’s collaborated over the years with people like Elton John Sia, Gary Barlow and Bonnie Tyler, all the while continuing to release his own albums who want to meet him. Let’s do it.


Sandy. Nik, how are you?


Very good. Thank you very much. How are you?


I’m terrific. Thank you so much for your time. Really? Nico Sure. A lovely guy by the name of Brett in Westmeadows here in Melbourne, wrote to me and said he was a huge fan of yours. And he wondered what you’re up to today. What are you up to?


Specifically om this day? I am in my studio recording some more songs from the shelf which are songs that I wrote back in the 90s when I wasn’t recording, just that I’ve lifted off the shelf that I thought merited public airing that come from various places. So my co wrote with other upcoming artists or other songwriters some are my own and they just never found at home.



Tell us your favorite one. Oh, wow. Okay.


The devil in the deep.


You mentioned you had a bit of a hiatus through the 90s Let’s just go back to where it all started. Many of our listeners would indeed know who you are. Some of them may not know so much about you. So I wonder if we could recap on how you got into the industry in the first place. And we’ll come back right up to present time.


Okay, but a potted life story then, if you would. My mom was a singer she sang operatic and leader stuff so she’d be cooking the dinner and the Hallelujah Chorus would be coming out of the kitchen. You know, like any sort of young kid I’d rather play football and play with my Lego. I wasn’t really that interested until I was sort of early teens I guess when I started discovering my own music who are your major influences? Well it he kind of went all over the place really I went through various phases to do with fashion and to do with what particular tribe I was trying to join at the time for early on Yeah, I guess it was Glam rock and it was burning Bowie was a huge wow moment when I saw him and I heard what he’s up to.


I went through various stages. I was I was a skinhead at one point, so then I was obliged to listen to Slade and a lot of reggae. Then I have my prog phase. So it was like Genesis and yes, and King Crimson and stuff before that was probably Deep Purple and Zeppelin and Alice Cooper.


So when was it really that you decided that your future was going to be in music,


The Bowie moment, that would have been when I first saw Bowie, and I would have been about 15. And a friend of mine had just got a guitar and I was hanging out with his place and picking up his guitar. And before that, I still wanted to be the centre of attention. I went through a period of wanting to be an actor, you know, the usual things of score, the winning goal, and the FA Cup Final racing car driver, nothing too mundane in it, just anything that involves showing off, really, and that I discovered I can actually do it, and that I had some kind of talent for it. So I thought, well, and I was rubbish at school, anything else? I thought, the only way I’m going to make anything of myself in life is to pursue this. So yeah, I would have been about 15 years old when I decided I was going to play music, and write my own music, and do that for them.


So how did you manage to break into the business?


Well, that that was quite a long process. As it turned out, first of all, I was in school bands that I had sort of my own band, then I went through a phase of actually earning a living in a functional span. I started kind of professionally as a musician back when I was sort of in my early 20s, in my 20s. In the end in 1978. Some around that time, I was in a jazz fusion band, and we played of jazz fusion, funnily enough, which is what attracted me to this band in the first place. But to actually earn a living, we played everything we played functions, bar mitzvahs, weddings, you name it, we played it, which is incredibly good training really, really was a great apprenticeship for me. But that band split up at the beginning at two because we didn’t have any work. And I thought I better sit down and try and write some songs. And I did that and hiked around record companies and got the usual pile of rejection slips.


It was youthful exuberance that kept him going. I was just absolutely positive that it was going to happen, right from the age of 17 or 18 years old. When I flunked out of school, I was completely sure that was gonna happen. I had no doubt in my mind, though. And it’s only when you look back and you realize how lucky you got. So it didn’t matter how many teachers were telling me I was an idiot. And it was never going to amount to anything and, or whether it was my record company executives, telling me I wasn’t commercial enough or whatever. Like just took it on the chin and got got on with it. Because even when I was struggling to get a deal, I thought there was a long way to go before I was going to give up there was a long road to travel before I was going to finally hang up the boots. And then as a last throw the dice I kind of advertised in Melody Maker for for management, and found a manager and he took the same tape to the same people and got me a record deal. It’s amazing. But from that point, I recorded the first album in 83. The first single was I won’t let the sun go down on me and it did okay. And it got me my name around the industry. And I did a little tour of radio stations to stuff like that. And it was being played on the radio because I was there when when they were playing it, but actually being caught unawares in out in public somewhere and my son coming on the radio that was wouldn’t it be good in the January of 1984 when I was sitting in a cab in London, just driving along and Radio One was on in this camp and wouldn’t it be good came on and I was like wow


Second single came out the beginning of 84 and that was wouldn’t it be good? And that’s the one that did the trick for me.


It certainly did. It became number four in the UK and number 46 The US it really got you up and going.


Yeah, it did it was it was literally as they say overnight success. I mean it was literally that one week I was completely anonymous next week I couldn’t walk down the street without disguise or a bodyguard. Yeah, it was insane. Absolutely insane.


How did that feel for you, I mean, was it was successful it was cracked up to be.


It was it was everything. And more it was the more that I wasn’t very comfortable with really. It was, you know, it’s what I dreamed about. Obviously, I remember doing my exams when I was 16 years old at school, my art exam was basically a picture of someone on stage with all these arms reaching up to them, you know, adoring this person. So that in that respect that it was kind of it was like that, and it was just amazing. And, and who doesn’t want to be the center of attention, you know, all that stuff was brilliant. But it was it was it was the fact that you were also public property. You know, people thought they owned you in the little bumping, you know, bump into you in the street and just just think they have some kind of ownership of you. And that that was that was the difficult thing, thing. And the loss, the loss of freedom, really, in two respects. One is that you can’t go You can’t go to pop down the shops and get a pint of milk. You can’t do that. They might not think seem like a very exciting thing to want to do. You want to do but when you can’t do it, it’s a big deal, right? Yeah.


So what do you mean you couldn’t do it while you were you’re likely to get mobbed if you tried to.


Yeah, literally. Absolutely. And girls grabbing

your clothes, your hair trying to kiss you all that stuff, which,

which sounds great fun, isn’t it? But it really is terrifying. I remember being chased through a shopping mall in Manchester by about 20 Norwegian got school girls and and their Norwegian is a big Right. So. So it was really terrifying. And I just I remember just going into with my security guard just sort of seeking refuge in a in a, in a Carphone Warehouse, I think and it was like But you know, you laugh about it now but it really was bloody hell. What are we going to do? What if they catch me? You know what’s gonna actually happen? Wow.


So literally overnight, you had to hire a security guard and well you wouldn’t. Yeah, did you really put a mustache on?


Absolutely. At its most extreme it wasn’t that long. It was maybe two years I guess when it was when you know I was so familiar face but in the UK, it was like you couldn’t get away from me. I mean, I remember sitting on a rare day off for thought I’m just gonna you know, get up have my breakfast and I put poured some cornflakes into a bowl and then a badge fell into you know, they used to give away free gifts in cereal things you know? Whatever those guys Yeah, and a bad fell into my bowl and it was a picture of my face looking back at me and it’s that gosh, please give me a break. But that was that was literally but maybe two years and then it’s kind of along with the rest of my career started declining.


You gotta be careful what you wish for.


But exactly but for now at the time it was kind of a kind of a bit of relief and our you get spotted but it wasn’t quite the same. You know, people would talk to stop and talk to you or or whatever, but I wasn’t gonna get mods after that. So that was

those Norwegian girls have grown up a couple of years. Yeah, possibly or just moved on to someone else. That’s what happens.


I remember talking to Peter Frampton one time and he said that he was really pissed off because they called him a teenybopper idol. And he said the teenyboppers only last and lucky music for a year and a half, and then they do move on, rather than being taken seriously and not appealed to the teenyboppers at all.


Well, yeah, there is that. But then on the other hand, I mean, you think, well, maybe it wouldn’t have happened at all. If it wasn’t for those guys. So I can’t, you know, that was that was my position. At the time, I did resent, you know, I spent all these years learning how to play the guitar and write songs and, and I thought I was, you know, pretty good at what I did. And you know, they screamed all the way through my guitar solos on stage. And you resent that, but then you bend, then you look back, and you think, Well, you know, that’s problem, but that’s one of the big reasons it actually happened. And one of the reasons I’m still making music now is because that happened. Yeah.


Peter Frampton also said to me that he had a lot of trouble because of his good looks, that the girls were after him more for his looks, he thought then for his actual music, I can imagine that your good looks back in the day would have played that sort of part as well.


No, it’s mainly my mind!


But the weird thing was, you know, I mean, you could see pictures that I’ve got pictures before I was famous and stuff like that. And I really, and I never got any any kind of attention from the opposite sex at all. Before I was famous, so I never thought of myself. But you know, it’s particularly good looking, but you can do amazing things with with stylists and hairdressers and smoke and mirrors, can’t you?


Don’t let him fool you. He was always a good looker, and still is, stay where you are more from Nik in just a sec.


Thanks for being here. Nick Kershaw released his first solo single, I won’t let the sun go down on me in 1983. And as he’s already told us, it really didn’t do that. Well, his next single however, wouldn’t it be good hit number five in the UK, and made it to number 46. In the US, it was this success that turned Nick into a star in Britain. And he quickly became a household name


that happened quite quickly. So I mean, more quickly than you’d imagine. Because, you know, the UK is not a big place. And there were only three television stations at the time. So if you’re on the BBC quite a lot, and I was on top the Pops and whatever. It’s going to pretty much every household. It’s not just going to a couple of million anyway, the viewing figures for these things were huge. So I started getting recognized quite early on. We went from the January of 1984. By the March I probably couldn’t leave my house without a disguise or a bodyguard. It was insane. It’s like I said, Be careful what you wish for me and this is what I want you This is my dream. This is me living my dream. But yeah, you’re just not ready for the freedoms that you lose. If you’re on a pint of milk. Someone has to go and get that for you and it’s just life becomes really difficult and and also at the beginning, you don’t have any money, but it’s like what are the benefits? So I’m just getting stopped in the street. I’m getting jumped on I’m getting my clothes ripped, some getting physically assaulted, and I haven’t even got a pot to piss in.


Don’t feel too sorry for him. Nick’s the first to admit that when the royalties did start coming in, the rewards were huge and made the small inconveniences just fade away


It was 1984 when the very first single was rereleased, wasn’t it? I won’t let the sun go down on me. What prompted its release? I mean, I know you mentioned that it didn’t do much good when it first came out. Why don’t we try again?


Well, I’d had two big hits when it bigger than dancing girls and it just seemed the obvious thing to do. You know, we didn’t Well, let’s just bang out again and redo the video and it’s now the summer because it was released in the autumn. And you know, it’s got the word sun in it. It’s like, it was a no brainer. This release it again. And you know, it was the right thing to do obviously,


clearly went off to Yeah, so you were still being mobbed everywhere in 1984. It charted in at number two. And it led to a series of hit singles after that, right.


Well, yeah, it was it all seems slightly insane now because we I don’t know who decided it, but it was decided that I would make and release another album within nine months. So the first one and I kind of went along with it, I guess. I mean, it’s the record company going wow, this this year that strike while the iron is hot, and you know this get another record out, but Christmas, and all that kind of stuff. And I was stupid enough to say yeah, all right. So I was promoting one album and making and writing and making the other one at the same time. So yeah, I think there were two albums and five hit singles in one year


and I agree with you yet, on nine, nine amazing though, that they all became hits. It was a wave, you know, I was riding a wave denefits necessarily about the quality of the product or just the kind the fact that I had a very, very receptive audience who just wanted to hear everything I did, you know, and it was one of the it’s just one of those times where everything is touched, turned to gold, you know, and it was just yeah, pretty amazing.


So I can imagine very enjoyable, but also a lot of hard work.


It was a lot of hard work. It was as I said it was all these things, it was incredibly exciting. I was getting to see the world I was I was living my dream. I was getting you know, financially rewarded for it. And it was it was all insanely good and but at the same time I spent most most of it being incredibly stressed and worried about the screwing up and met him looking in idiot in public and losing it, you know, so it’s kind of, it’s a weird thing and my one regret in and that’s probably a life lesson for everybody but everything they do not necessarily the specific thing but my one regret is that I didn’t stop and smell the roses a little more, just sort of soak it up and enjoy it. That’s but that’s in my makeup, I was kind of that I was very distressed. I was just, it was quite a stressful time.


And as you said, you get carried along in a wave and you the pressure is on you to come up with the next tear after the last one and the record company at that time must have been really demanding. So you just have to keep propelling yourself forward you you haven’t got time to stop. It’s quite a common theme.


Now we’re looking at I think, well I get I have a choice. You know, I could say well, I could have said Whoa, hang on a minute, you know could have done that and just say oh, I need a break or whatever. And I couldn’t you know they wouldn’t what were they gonna say no, they they would have said yes but some reason I just kind of I was I was just panicked as they were about losing it you know and not taking full advantage of the kind of attention I was getting.


Long term? Not really no, no, I mean, there were a few little moments I recall sitting in hotel rooms in the corner rocking back and forth and blab me eyes out for no apparent reason but, you know that’s that’s life, isn’t it things things get to you sometime. And it did but no, I don’t think it needs any long term damage to me really. I mean, and it kind of toughened me up quite a toughy.


It was the following year in 1985 that Nik Kershaw was invited to take part in the biggest concert of his lifetime. That multi venue extravaganza Live Aid.


She was excited, kind of a new boy when Band Aid record came out. And I think the people on their record would basically the people in Mitch or Bob’s the dress books that because they literally got on the phone and started phoning people. And I wasn’t part of that thing. I got involved because I was doing a German TV Pop Festival thing and was at Heathrow Airport. And there was a bunch of us doing this one show. And for some reason Bob Geldof was there, just sort of loitering. And he just walked up to me said do you want to do a gig we’re going to do a gig you know about brand aciac Go sign up at Vandy. We’re going to do a gig you fancy doing it. Yeah, great.


The idea of holding a benefit caught on quickly. Audiences were keen to turn up at Wembley Stadium, and organizers were told billions of people would watch the event on TV, as it was broadcast live to the world.


Oh, just watched it getting crazier and crazier and bigger and bigger. And consequently getting more and more nervous as the day approach sitting in the royal box watching status quo, kick it all off. I’m hanging out backstage, Norma talking to sting he just released during the blue turtles album. And I’m talking to him about that album and how much I enjoyed the album and he talked about how much fun it was to make it.


I remember just being incredibly nervous all day. And then somehow we ended up on stage. I just remember standing on the side of the stage. I hadn’t seen my crew. I didn’t know if my equipment was going to be on stage it didn’t know how much of it’s going to be working. You just pray that it’s going to work. And I don’t know how my legs carried me on either. I don’t remember the process of actually walking from the side of the stage out front to my microphone. Literally terrified, realized I didn’t know the words to the second verse of wouldn’t it be good and they never came to me so I repeated the first verse


Watching Bowie and queen that was quite extraordinary


Live Aid raised nearly $130 million, and the publicity it generated encouraged Western nations to make available enough surplus grain to end the immediate hunger crisis in Africa. Bob Geldof was later knighted by Queen Elizabeth for his efforts. You pull back from performing sometime after that, though, didn’t you in turn more to songwriting?


Yeah, that was 1989 I guess I was contracted to do four albums with with MCA Records. And the fourth one was was a Bucha novel called The Works, which I recorded in Los Angeles, and I wasn’t happy with it. And I bought it back when I came back again. And when I came back, most of the record company have been sacked or, or whatever. So it’s almost a completely different record company. And then I was on tour with Elton John, I was touring in Europe with Elton. And the album wasn’t doing well. And understandably. And he spent a fortune on it as well. And understandably, MCA said, Well, see you later. We’re not we’re we’re kind of we’re not going to take up another option for another album. So see you and so I was left with a choice there of what do I do? Do I kind of go looking for another deal? Or do I take this opportunity to try something different and we just had, our first child was two years old. I think Rudy was two years old, and I just kind of wanted to be around for watch my kids grow up really, to do that. And I thought, Well, I’m a songwriter. I will just write songs, I can produce records and stuff like that. I’ll just do that. And that seemed to work pretty well.


You wrote a holiday you did? Okay. Yeah, there was a bit of a false dawn really, because pretty much the first song that I’ve that I wrote in with that mindset was the one and only which was a massive hit for Chesney, but it didn’t let you know that that didn’t happen every week, which and it was a lot more difficult than I thought it was still because I was going to be because I spent a good sort of it no good first couple years at least just trying to learn how to how to write for other people. Because I you know, I’d write something and I’d send it into the publishing company and they’d go Yeah, it’s great, but it sounds too much like knickers, Shawn, how are we going to get it covered? You know, how are we going to get it recorded by someone else. So I spent a while sort of not being me really. And writing writing just just sort of writing songs as a craft


The songs that you’ve written and produced for people like Sia and Gary Barlow, Bonnie Tyler, you actually had to get inside their heads to try and write in their stuff. Yeah, to an extent or just you just kind of if you’re just sitting in your studio, writing a song for no one in particular, you just have to make sure it’s not you know, you have to be quite generic with lyrics and you they can’t sort of make any particular statements specific to you because someone else is going to those words are going to come out of someone else’s mouth. That’s that’s the that’s the first thing that I did struggled the whole writing for other people because I did spend a lot of time listening to pop music because I didn’t really write pop music. I got kind of lucky with a few songs, the kind of music that was getting covered all the time and that you could deliver to artists and I I found that difficult as well So ultimately it turned out not to be the right career No.


Nik Kershaw wrote he’s got a hold on me for Bonnie Tyler. Stay tuned


Welcome back. I hope you’re enjoying our chat with singer songwriter and producer Nik Kershaw. Nik’s already mentioned that he started writing for other people. When his string of 80s hits ran out. He got incredibly lucky when the first one he offered a publisher was taken up by 19 year old English actor and pop sensation Chesney Hawkes the song The one and only topped the UK Singles Chart for five weeks and reached the top 10 in the United States. The royalties that came in from that song bought Nik two houses.


initially, I just wrote songs and put them on the shelf and took them to my publisher and people walked along and said, I love that one, which is what happened with the one and only Chesney Hawkes because that was already written. But that doesn’t happen very often, your publisher will be aware of who’s looking for songs and they might contact you saying so and so’s looking Have you got anything? And then you’d say yes or no or I can write something for summer Sarah’s got an album coming out he wants to do some co writing Do you want to write with them? And I do that prior to that when you’re writing for yourself? Your songs have been very personal


Yeah, I did this or you know, they’re the time but yeah, so and it’s much easier as I as I discover it took me nine years to discover it but it’s much easier writing a song for yourself and it’s for other people much easier. Because you’ve got one person to please next you and you think is this good? Yes, I think it is then you carry on with it but then you’re second guessing all the time when you write for other people you think is this good? Will they like it, you know, will the manager like it will the managers milkmen like it will the managers mom and like get with everybody everybody’s got like at the produce. You know, the producers got to like it the record companies got to like it the artists obviously he’s got to like it. And they’re all different opinions. So you end up writing this kind of real sort of average song because it’s it’s with the lowest common denominator, isn’t it? Because people you know, it’s more likely that everybody’s gonna like it.


Of all those songs that you did right? was the one that you really did like, oh, yeah, I kind of liked that. I still liked the songs but I kind of that but they were different. They were a different thing. You know, there were more as I said there was more like songwriting wasn’t an art at that point. It was just it was a craft. It was something you did like making a pot or a good pod.


And which one do you like this? Oh my god. Here’s a few to choose from.


Well, there are a few different that’s one of the reasons I’m recording these songs which which which never saw the light of day really. And what I’m one of the reasons they never saw the light of the day was big because they were probably they were too much like me,


but of the ones you wrote for Elton that you wrote for Sia that you wrote for Bonnie Tyler – I wrote with her because she’s got obviously a very strong mind of her own. But that one forgot recorded the minutes that’s sitting on my shelf and nobody will ever hear that. So I listened to it the other day, so nothing was really good.


So you might record a piece up? No, because it’s the inflection in the voice and the lyric and everything is so see, I can’t I mean, it’s not, I couldn’t pull it off, you know?


And what about the ones who you worked with Elton John,


there was one song that I wrote for his duets album. I mean, he literally called me up and I hadn’t spoken to him for a couple of years. And he just found me out of the blue and said, I’m doing a duet segment. Do you have any songs? And I didn’t not really he said, What can you write something? And I said, Well, okay, I’ll give it a go. And um, I gave it a go and I delivered these two songs to him and then he said, Well, you know, you do realize I want you to sing and with me, you’re gonna laugh because I hadn’t done a nice thing at all for made a record for about four years at that point. There were two songs I wrote and one of them old friend gone we’ve got an album now



What was it like working with him? Well, I’ve known him for a while and it is different thing working with him, you know? Because how do you add your produce? Because I was producing it as well. So it’s like, how do you do that with someone of his stature? You know? How do you how do you produce someone like that? Because you just assume they really know what they’re doing that you can use the word best and all that then you can’t you can’t produce a record like that. Because you’re you are in charge. You are trying to get the best out of this record. And the thing I found most amazing about it take direction when I sought out Mike, what about if you try this and you’ll go Yeah, alright. They just was a was probably one of the easiest people I’ve ever worked with in my life because he was so eighth, obviously very good at his job. And they just he just wanted the best. For the record. He was just very easy to work with.


He probably figured you knew what you were doing.


Yeah, maybe well, and I’m there’s a reason why he asked me in the first place, I guess. Yeah. That was, that was a great few days in Metropolis studios. Yeah. And you do a whole bunch of stuff at Abbey Road Studios over the years. Yeah, I have done I think some of the some of that my last album was recorded there. And it’s not there are many studios left in London, to be honest. So you haven’t got a lot of choice. If you want to record an orchestra and anything sort of big you have to go to Abbey Road or or AIR Studios


I think it has I think I’d probably couldn’t nail it down but and tell you what it is that’s changed, but you do you change as a person and you change with life experiences and everything you learn and you think, you know, you do something you think well, I won’t do that again. But all these things come to the fore when you’re when you’re writing and I don’t know what’s changed, but I must be very different. I mean, my voice has changed. And I think my voice is better than it was back then. Because I never really obviously guitar player really, I just kind of got away with singing back then. And kind of mellowed a bit over the years. I just got older, basically I’ve got older and hopefully a little bit wiser and my output went down. I’d say my hunger decreased a little bit, which is no bad thing because you end up just writing when you want to write you know, don’t sit down and try and force the song out anymore. It’s just gonna say if something comes to me I’ll act on it.


Well you realize your dream and then you could take it easy I guess.


Well, I guess so. Although you never do you never get to the stage when you think yeah, I’ve done it that’s it in there’s no more to do you there’s always something more to do.


So are you liking what you’re hearing of the old material that you re recording now?


Well, yeah, I wouldn’t release it into the public domain if I wasn’t proud of it. Yeah, yeah. And then some of it caught up quite surprised me I listen to things I mean, not all of it some of it was not good. I have to say you know and that’s been nobody’s perfect. So that’s the whole reason for releasing this the songs because there’s got stuff in it that I that I’m you know proud of and I want you got it all.


It must be difficult to be objective about yourself when you listen to yourself from years back, but it’s actually much easier when you can listen to it in the third person. You know what, whereas if you’re totally wrapped up in a project or a song, you can completely lose objectivity. Which is why when I when I right now I’ll write something, I’ll just do a quick demo of stuff. And then I’ll just put it away. And I’ll leave it for at least three or four months. So I can forget it. Forget, and then I’ll play it again. And I’m surprised myself, I ambush myself with a song thing. And that point, I can be really objective when I say, this is really good. And why did I bother? But it’s, it’s, it’s much easier in retrospect to be objective,and you bounce it off anybody? Or is it your opinion? That’s the only one that actually counts at this stage?


Yeah, I don’t really. I mean, that’s probably I probably should, but I, I don’t I like to get things exactly how I think they should be before applying to anybody, which is usually at that point, it’s finished, and it’s ready to go out, you know, so. So if anybody has got any suggestions, it’s probably too late by that point. I don’t know why that is I just get I’m a control freak. And I like to get things my own way. And also, I’m terrified of rejection, and other people don’t like things. So just do it as I like, and then check it out. That’s, that’s the way I do it.


But I’d imagine that you don’t measure success by, you know, album sales or single streams or anything anymore, either. Tell me if I’m wrong, if you’re happy with it being the perfectionist and control freak that you are, if you’re happy with it, and you put it out there, does it matter to you? What happens to it?


No, it doesn’t. Not really. Everybody wants to be loved. And everybody wants, you know, to be appreciated. And it’s great when it happens. And people say the nice things about these things, I do appreciate the feedback I get from fans and stuff. But ultimately, I’m making the records because that’s kind of what I do. And I love doing it. There is no other reason. There isn’t this point. This is because if you looked into it, and you think well, there was the point, when there was the point, make a record, it’s not going to something earn any money, it’s not going to sit the charts on fire. I’m not prepared to do what I had to do back in, you know, 3040 years ago, in order to have a hit record. I’m not prepared to do that. So it won’t be a hit record. And I don’t and so I know that before I start so that pressure is completely off. So it’s just about is this the process, it’s the process of making the record. And at that point must have made it my my work is done. As far as I’m concerned.


This is the first of six that you’re putting out now, do you have a timeline? Or they’ll just come out when whenever you feel like it? Whenever I feel I mean, obviously, at some point, I need to start working on my next album, actual new new material and stuff, which I haven’t even made a start on yet. The last one was 2020. Yeah. And I don’t want it the next one to take me eight years, which is what the that was the gap between the last two albums. So I’ll probably do these these six songs as songs from the shelf part two, and then I’ll start getting stuck into the next album.


That last album that you were talking about was called oxymoron, was released in 2020. As you said, favorite track on that one?2


Oh I don’t know. Can’t go on I love that track. Babylon brothers. Love that track.


What are you talking about in that one?


That one is very, it’s really looking back at my formative years when I was first getting into music and all my influences and all and all that the energy and the excitement and the sharing it with the inmates and just all that and there are loads of references to the songs and the artists of that time and, and watching Old Grey Whistle Test on a Tuesday night and just the hunger for the new new music and how passionate he felt about all that stuff. And we were like brothers in arms basically. Just a bunch of us just hanging out. Have you heard this one? Check this out and all this that only all that excitement, and it’s about that really? And it’s not a bad thing either as luck, whatever.


thank you so much for talking with us what a pleasure meeting you I’m sure Brett’s going to be wrapped to hear how you’re doing these days everyone will be very happy to hear that you’re making new music lots to come still from you and feeling pretty good about yourself.


Thank you, Sandy. It’s been a been an absolute pleasure.


the very talented Nick Kershaw there. Thanks so much for being here with me today. If you’d like to check out any of my back episodes, head for your favorite podcast player or to the website a breath of fresh You’ll find all the episodes listed on both platforms. Hope you have a fabulous next few days coming up. I look forward to being back in your company same time next week by now.