Welcome to a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. Hi there, a big welcome to you, great to have you company. Our guest today was a co-founder of the legendary 60s band Traffic and his musical path started strong and only grew more significant over time.
He’s a revered guitar player and singer-songwriter known for penning this tune. Now I still don’t wonder why, that when I think of you I start to cry. I just can’t waste my time, I must keep trying.
Gotta stop believing in all your lies. Cause there’s too much to do before I die. Villanelle Wright is one of rock’s most covered anthems and Dave Mason wrote it when he was just 21.
Dave left Traffic in 1969 to pursue a solo career. Since then he’s penned over a hundred songs, has three gold albums and a platinum. He’s worked with so many famous names like the Rolling Stones, George Harrison, Paul McCartney and the great Jimi Hendrix.
Dave’s one of rock’s true heroes and he joins us today to share his colourful, unique and triumphant journey through a life in music. Dave Mason, it’s fabulous to have you company again. The last time we spoke was during the pandemic and you got through hanging out in your house in Maui.
Were you always destined to be a musician? When I was at school my dream was to be in the Royal Air Force when I was 13, 14. And what happened to that? Nah, my math skills are just not, they’re not the best. So there was not, I was never going to get through the exams, it wasn’t going to happen.
You’ve been playing guitar most of your life and by 15 you’d already founded two bands, so you knew pretty early on that that’s what you wanted to do with yourself, didn’t you? Well, yeah, it became the choice. There were some options that just didn’t work out. So, you know, it’s just a wing and a prayer.
It’s basically it, you know. School wasn’t for you? Well, I pretty much left school when I was about 70, 16 or 17. And then I went to a technical college for about a year and a half.
But I was pretty much, you know, out on my own. By the time I was 16 or 17, I was pretty much out on my own. As most kids did back in those days.
Today they stay at home a whole lot longer under the parents’ watchful eye. So I guess your parents… That’s a whole other interview. Okay, leave that for another time.
That’s a whole other interview, yeah. How did you meet the guys, Steve Winwood and of course the late great Jim Capaldi and Chris Wood? How did you get together with them in the first place? Jim and I had bands together before Traffic, local bands. The Deep Feeling and the Hellions, right? Yeah.
And then we took playing in Birmingham and stuff. We all met up at a sort of after hours place. We were fans of the Spencer Davis Group.
Spencer Davis Group. And in 1967, he and Steve Winwood left the group to form Traffic with Jim Capaldi and floutist Chris Wood. It basically all came about with just four guys that just sort of, when they could, spent some time hanging out together, listening to music, getting high.
You know, it was just, that’s how Traffic started. It was very fashionable to be a band back then, wasn’t it? It was what everyone was doing. And it was the way you got the girls too.
Well, I suppose it’s still the same, you know, there’s plenty of bands. What is it, do you think, about being in a band that makes the girls go a bit crazy? God, I have no idea. If we could bottle it, we’d make a fortune.
You’re already making a fortune. Somebody is. Fair enough.
What I can’t believe is that some of those songs that you did as Traffic are still just as fresh and new today as they were back then. Does that surprise you? Well, as I say, it’s either good music or it isn’t good music. And good music lasts.
I mean, I listen to classical, jazz. I mean, I listen to great music. You know, whether it’s old or new is irrelevant to me.
Music is timeless. It’s either good or it isn’t. So I listen to all kinds of music.
Can you think of any music that you like today that we’ll be talking about in 50 years time? God, I have no idea. I’m sure you’ll still be talking about Mozart. Good answer.
Absolutely. Absolutely. At the age of 19 in 1967, Dave wrote Hole in My Shoe for Traffic.
The song became a huge hit, but Dave still cringes when he hears it today. Yeah, well, yes, that was the first song I ever wrote. And that was their biggest hit single.
Went to number two. Anglebird Humperdinck kept it from number one. What did you write it about? Did you actually have a hole in your shoe? Yeah, you know, it was, believe it or not, it’s the first song I’d ever written, i.e. myself just wrote the whole thing.
And it was very much of the time. I mean, I was 19, 20 years old, but you think you know everything, but you don’t, you know. I’m just trying, you know, I just because I didn’t know.
I mean, the great part about when you’re that age is that because, you know, you don’t know what not to do, it pushes the boundaries. So you sometimes come up with great stuff. So that’s basically where it was at for me.
I had to find out what it could do. I was just, I was trying, you know, mucking around. It was 1967 and shortly after Hole In My Shoe was released, Dave decided to leave the band.
He recorded the solo single Little Woman and early the next year decided to rejoin Traffic. So what was it about that group for him? I think the real magic of it was, unfortunately, part of the theme that broke it up in the end, i.e. as far as the four of us. And that was, though we all shared a love of a lot of similar music, the differences is what made things, I think, as strong as it was.
So it was a great little combo, but it was not for me to finish up being there in the end. And yet he had come back again, this time to write the song Feelin’ Alright. Feelin’ Alright was apparently a song expressing Dave’s ambivalence about his association with the other members of Traffic, and it was released as the first single off the second album in 1968.
Incredibly, the single didn’t chart, but the song would go on to become Dave Mason’s signature tune, particularly after it was covered by Joe Cocker the following year. That was when I had written some of those songs on the first Traffic album, which they were rather, you know, like, oh my God, if I want to write, I need to sort of, I need some kind of life experience because me, I’m, you know, I have like zero, I’m from an upper middle class family from the heartland of England. So, you know, my street smarts were zip and zero.
If you’re writing songs, you’re writing about life. You gotta, you know, so I don’t know, I just decided to take some time off and really kind of sort of think about some things. I actually went to Greece, the island of Hydra, and that’s where I wrote Feelin’ Alright.
I went to a little bag and a guitar. What were you feelin’ alright about? Feelin’ alright, the song is not about feelin’ alright. It’s about not feeling too good myself.
Ah, what were you not feeling too good at? It’s kind of the original, the real title of the original where I wrote it is a question mark. It’s a question. So what are you writing about? What does anybody write about songs? They’re all love songs.
Even the hate songs are love songs. They’re all love songs about something or someone or something. But you’re not going to tell me specifically what that one was about, huh? Not really.
You can wait for the book. The book’s about only you know and I know, and then everything you ever wanted to know more. I’ve got to leave before I start to scream If someone’s locked the door and took the key You’re feelin’ alright I’m not feelin’ too good myself Well, you’re feelin’ alright I’m not feelin’ too good myself When you left Traffic, why did that come to an end for you? Well, again, that’s the book.
Ah, Dave! That’s the book. Otherwise, it’d be like the illusionist showing you how the trick was done. Well, you’re being very cagey here.
No, I can’t give, I mean, I can’t give that away. You know, it’s the book. Get the book.
Everybody, get the book. And you’re not giving away any secrets that have gone into that book. No, I can’t do that.
You know, I can tease a little bit though. Ah, which bits are you going to tease for me? I don’t know. It depends on what question you ask.
Ah, you’re putting it back on me. Okay. I’ve got a feeling that when we last spoke, you’d already started that book.
Has it been a work in progress for some years? Yeah, it’s been, I think, over two years. My co-writer, Chris Epting, thank God, you know. Otherwise, times, places, and certain events, I wouldn’t, I don’t know.
I would never, I mean, I don’t really, you know, the past is, the past, I only revisit this when I do things like this. Otherwise, I’m not really thinking about it. No, I remember you said that too, that you’re not one to look back.
You’re always moving forward and never looking behind you. I think that’s probably a very good philosophy on life. Is it one you’ve adopted all along? I don’t know.
It’s just me. That’s my nature, I guess. It must stand you in good stead, so it doesn’t leave any room for regret.
Well, there’s always regret, but, you know, I just regret and all that stuff. It’s like going on a vacation with too much luggage. Well, you can leave some of it behind.
I like to travel light. You know, if you can’t get it in a carry-on, don’t bring it. Is that right? Do you really go everywhere with a carry-on? That’s what I told my wife when I first met her.
I’m in awe of that. Well, I’m being, you know, I’m not being totally literal here. I get it.
You like to travel light. Don’t carry much baggage of any sort, emotional or physical. Right.
Makes moving forward easier. Dave Mason left traffic for the final time, and the group broke up shortly afterwards in 1968. Steve Winwood joined Blind Faith, while Dave, Jim Capaldi and Chris Wood teamed up with McWeaver to form the short-lived Wooden Frog.
Dave says he was pretty happy with who he was. I’m part of that era where it all sort of more or less started in the 50s. There was great stuff that was done.
I mean, I’m glad that I went. I’m from that period. I mean, I’m from when it all started.
And what of his relationship with Steve Winwood? You’ll have to keep listening to find out.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. How’s your relationship with Steve these days? I have no idea.
Right. Say no more. I haven’t had any clue for a long time, so I don’t know.
Right. Obviously not something that you miss. Dave Mason and Steve Winwood had had a turbulent time together as part of Traffic, clashing primarily because of differing musical visions and artistic approaches.
Dave had been oriented towards psychedelic pop and felt that his contributions weren’t valued by the other guys who were moving towards more of a folk blues style. Ultimately, Steve Winwood’s dissatisfaction with Dave’s contributions led to a final point of dismissal. After his exit from Traffic, Dave took himself to Los Angeles to join Delaney and Bonnie in Friends.
Only you know and I know All the love we’ve got to show So don’t refuse to believe me By reading too many memes Don’t you know That I mean what I say, so don’t go And take me the wrong way No, you can’t go, I’ll take you the wrong way Cause you’re too strong against something By 1970, David signed a solo contract and began a notable career as a session musician, during which time he played and recorded with a wide range of incredible artists like the Rolling Stones, George Harrison, Paul McCartney and his favourite, Jimi Hendrix. I did get to spend time with him, fortunately. Very lucky, and I finished up through that recording on Electric Ladyland, playing acoustic guitar all along the Watchtower.
Actually singing on Crosstown Traffic. And then there’s a few, there’s about three or four tracks of me playing bass and sitar that we did. I’m not sure what happened, though I think a couple of them sort of, I think, escaped, as I’ve heard recently.
But yeah, Hendrix was something. I’ve been fortunate in having made music with some, each in their own way, you know, the great and best of what that had to offer. To pick any one is kind of, I mean, of course for me as a guitar player I have to pick the time with Hendrix.
He was also so unique, as well as being a great guitar player. That one would have to stand out. There’s some great people I’ve been fortunate to work with.
There must be some kind of way out of here Say the joker to the thief There’s too much confusion I can’t get no relief Business man there, drink my wine Plowman, dig my earth None were level on the mind Nobody offered his worth There’s a lot of great guitar players, but there’s no more, there aren’t any more Jimi Hendrix. Why is that? In the same way there’s never been another Elvis Presley. Right, it’s just, you know, he’s that unique.
A lot of great players, a lot of incredible guitar players, but he just had something else, and very innovative. So is it a God-given talent? Is it something that’s in your DNA? Yeah, I guess, yeah. There are those little flashes of things that come out.
Guitarists I know, all they would want to be is as good as Dave Mason. They would aspire to… But it’s true, they would aspire to reach the heights that you have reached in terms of your playing prowess, your musicianship. For you that’s been a lot of hard work, a lot of practice over the years, right? That’s how you’ve gotten to where you are.
Yeah, just keep going, keep going. Were there times when you thought you might give it up? Sure, it’s all in the book. Hey, you could tease a few things here.
I’m not hearing too many teasers coming out of you. Yeah, I mean, it’s all there. I mean, it’s a life story.
It’s my journey up until now is there in that book. Okay. And there are highlights, like Hendrix, like McCartney, like there are musical things, but it’s, you know, it’s my story.
It’s what happened, what should have happened, what could have happened, you know. All right, stop there. What should have happened, Dave Mason? A lot of things.
I should have been smarter when I was younger. Okay. What could have happened? I’m a country boy.
I just fell off the tuna truck. I had no idea. It’s a common story, so suffice to say, if you were to start it all again with the wisdom of hindsight, you’d do it differently.
I’m sure I would. In what sense? In the business sense? Well, that for sure. You know, would have taken care of that better, more diligent.
Yeah, basically, I mean, that probably, you know, wouldn’t have done quite so much research and things like that, yeah. What do you mean research? What research did you do? It’s in the book. You can read it all in the book.
You’re certainly keeping it very close to your chest. Is there someone dead or alive now that you wished you’d played with that you haven’t? I would like to have recorded some stuff with Bonnie Raitt. Well, that can still happen.
Off the top of my head, I just can’t think. She’s the most immediate person I can think of. Why Bonnie? What do you like about her? I love her.
She’s great. She sings great, plays great slide guitar. Brassy redhead.
Just your type. Just my type. Hey, you’ve got a new song out.
It’s called Mangos. People can pick that up from your website, which is DaveMasonMusic.com. The proceeds of that you donated to the Maui Food Bank after the destruction that happened there. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Basically, when we were stuck and trapped over there in Maui through COVID, thank God we had that place.
And frankly, it was great. Having a year off for me after pretty much going at it for 58 years or so was great to have the time off. It’s a small little house.
It’s nothing big. But we have a big, huge mango tree in the back garden that produces, I’m told by people who’ve been there for some time, some of the better mangoes. It’s so big, it’s over three other properties.
So I just try. And then there’s this place down in South Kihei, and it’s called the Minihuni Shores. And that word just was like, I’ve got to write something with that word Minihuni.
So between the Minihuni and the mangoes, I came up with this song. Yeah, so we hope that I put it up on the website, hoping some people will pick it up. We do need half the money to whatever relief in Maui.
With a pedigree like Dave’s, whatever he records sounds great. I can’t play you mangoes, though, because it’s only available on his website. But songs like this one have kept him on the lips of audiences everywhere since the 70s.
Been away Haven’t seen you in a while How’ve you been? Have you changed your style And do you think That we’ve grown up differently? Don’t seem the same Seems you’ve lost your feel for me So let’s leave it alone Cause we can’t see eye to eye There ain’t no good guy There ain’t no bad guy There’s only you and me and we just disagree How about you? Have you got a place to stay? Why should I care When I’m just trying to get along? We were friends But now it’s the end of our love song So let’s leave it alone Cause we can’t see eye to eye There ain’t no good guy There ain’t no bad guy There’s only you and me and we just disagree What does he think the key to his success is? And why the book? I don’t know. I’m just a singer-guitar player. What big deal.
You are a big deal, but you’re also a singer-guitar player who’s obviously kept a lot of things close to your chest. Getting it out now in the book must have been very therapeutic for you. Was it a cathartic experience? No.
No. Not really. None at all.
I mean, I’m very fully aware of what I’ve done and the things I regret. Oh God, if only, you know. It’s too bad the youth is wasted on the young.
I couldn’t agree more. But that’s part of, you know, you go through it and then hopefully you don’t make the same mistakes again otherwise, as they say, if you keep doing the same thing expecting change, that’s the definition of insanity. So who convinced you to write the book? Oh, fans.
And my wife. They badger me forever. It’s great to hear it all down.
Otherwise I would never have done this, wrote it. No, I can imagine. You appear to be quite a private person and sharing your innermost stuff must have at times been quite uncomfortable.
Not at all. I mean, I just pretty much put it all out there. I mean, I don’t, you know, I’m not kissing and telling, which is what it costs, you know, a publisher.
What are you going to put out? It’s like, no, no, no, no. I’ll tell you what I did and what happened, but I’m not going to, you know, throw all the crap around. This is not for that rack of the checkout counter when you leave.
Well, so far we’ve got out of you that you haven’t seen Steve Winwood in a long time. We’re not quite sure why you left traffic, but once you did, you started making solo albums and your first full-length outing was 1970s Alone Together, which was a huge success, and you continued releasing albums right through the 70s and 80s and had a huge hit with 1977 single We Just Disagree. Has that been your most successful hit to date? I guess my most successful hit is Feeling Alright.
It’s recorded by over 50 major artists and every barman has played it and they still play it. So single, if you’re talking about it as a hit single, then We Just Disagree is, yeah, which was written by guitar player Jim Krieger, was with me for about 18 years. Do you still have to pinch yourself when you hear, say, Feeling Alright on the radio covered by someone else? I can’t imagine how that would feel 50-something years later going, wow, this song still lives.
How does that feel for you? Well, I wish I had about 10 more of them. It’s what it makes me feel. Not a good answer.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, too, after Grand Funk Railroad charted with the song, Cockers was re-released.
Are you still writing today? I still a little bit, somewhat. That’s the whole mish and mosh of getting into what’s going on with streaming and downloading, the fact that the internet has destroyed intellectual property. Which makes you less inclined to want to put out new material? Yeah.
That, and besides that, there’s nowhere getting it promoted. The other part is that everybody keeps forgetting about terrestrial radio, which is still very powerful, except nobody’s home. They’re just playing the same songs you’ve heard 10 million times before.
There’s no DJs. There’s nobody there anymore. Say, hey, check out the new Dave Mason record.
Been speaking about it since, you know, Pabst went on interviews. Oh, no, no, don’t talk about that. Be negative.
It’s just, hey, this is what’s happening, guys. We have the road. Part of it is that’s, yes, that’s where you’re going to be out on the road.
That’s where you probably have a lot more acts out there. That’s basically all there is.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. I probably shouldn’t have asked Dave to keep airing his gripes, but I did.
Well, with all the competition in terms of everybody out on the road, there’s not enough sharing that kind of… It’s great sharing jobs. Yeah, so then it’s down to what, you know, people have to choose where they’re going to go and who they want to see, you know. So we hope that they want to see Dave and want to see the band.
If you still love the real shit, live music, you know, there’s no dancing girls, there’s no smoke bombs, there’s no… Then, you know, that’s what we do. And just hopefully couple with some great songs and perhaps some stories. You know, we’re trying to have fun.
I mean, basically, we’re out there just trying to have fun for ourselves on stage. You know, that way, hopefully the audience picks up on it and they walk out of their feeling better than they did than when they walked in. Feeling all right.
Yeah. For me. And I feel great, too.
You’ve released a compilation called Alone Together Again. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Alone Together Again, I just redid my very first solo album, which in the US was huge. And so it’s 50 years later.
But part of it is I just sort of started re-recording it, redoing it. I was kind of more or less for my own amusement in the beginning. I mean, I started doing it over ten years ago pretty much.
And then it just developed into, well, it’s a 50-year anniversary. So it’s the Alone Together album redone. There’s a few things on there that I think are better.
There’s a song in there that’s totally rearranged into a more contemporary form. But the packaging is the same. We’ve had this multicoloured album.
Does it amaze you that Vinyl’s made such a comeback? Yeah. I mean, yes and no, I suppose. I mean, it’s great.
You need to be tactile with stuff. The Internet’s great and all that stuff, but somewhere you need to actually get out there and touch it and see it and feel it. And I think people like that.
And there is, for people, especially audiophiles, and those people that are… There is a difference audio-wise and along. Redoing my album, I mean, I had no idea who else or what else does that. It happened that Cat Stevens, I guess, did the same thing coincidentally.
Walk me through a couple of your favourite tracks from this album. Which one are you most proud of? Well, like you said, that’s like picking, you know, your kid’s thing. You can’t really.
For the most part on this album, I’m redoing as authentically as possible what I did, but with some variational changes. One song is a major difference. It’s totally different, which is World in Changes.
It’s totally new the way I’ve done it from the way I originally did it. Why did you change that up? I did that like a while back, just to play around with my songs. And I just loved the version.
It came out great. Things could be lazy If they weren’t so crazy And I wasn’t following you Running in circles Won’t find me no purpose It’s right here with you And what I do Changes of season Unending as fate I spend the night Watching the changes in you Hold on for a new day In search of a new way But are you sure that it will do World in changes It’s still gonna do I’ve got a lot to learn About you The other song is Sad and Deeply Jewed. To me, it’s so much better than the original.
Are you getting better with age? Like a fine wine. While ageing obviously suits him in terms of his music, Dave still struggles with the internet and the state of the music industry today. I don’t know what happened.
We used to go and make a record. And that record might turn out to be a huge hit. Which then lifted that artist above the pack.
I don’t know what they do today. I guess they make videos for YouTube. I mean, I guess.
I’m an analog guy in the digital world. I really do not spend any time on this thing. At all.
Other than if I’m doing some research or I’m looking for something or I need something to get equipment wise. So do you worry? Do you worry for the future of music? It’s not so much about the music. It’s showbiz.
Entertainment is a huge industry. And it’s encased and calculated and categorized. And put out that way.
It’s always the biggest part. When you talk pop music, I mean, you’re talking about pre-teenagers and teenagers. They’re still.
And the only other category really is country. Is the only thing really happening there. I guess there’s blues.
But there’s people that still will go out and search all the other kinds of music. But there’s no, the writing and trying to create a new album of sorts is on so many levels. Other than just for personal satisfaction is very, very unrewarding and frustrating.
Because it’s not there for your product to be, you know, to generate what it should. I mean, it’s like anything. This is what I do is 90% is all technical.
It’s all manual stuff. And the rest of it is kind of, 90% is work. That’s what it entails.
Like any work, you know, we have a whole section of our work that we aren’t getting, that we’re not getting the recompense correctly. As anybody is doing. Because, unfortunately, words and music and all that stuff has been turned into zeros and ones.
And it’s out there in this ether. So Pandora is out of the box. It’s a little hard to put the liquid back in the box.
All we have left is we have the road. We have tour. That’s all pretty much for everybody, which I’ve been doing since I was 17.
Don’t you get sick of touring? Well, no, because I like playing. So, you know, the one goes for the other. And when you’re not on tour, do you sit at home playing half the day too? Mostly.
Well, right now for the last year or so and for the next probably year and a half, we’re remodeling a place here in Nevada. So you’ve got other projects. Yeah, that’s the main, that’s the big project.
Do you have to actually keep up your chops by practicing when you’re not on tour? Well, I pick up a guitar for a while every day. You know, mostly just keep calluses on the fingers. So when it comes to new records, you know, I’ll make a few things and we take them on the road, which is really the only place that people will get new music.
I’m like the Tupperware guy. It’s like, hey, it’s me. It’s Dave.
Dave’s not here. And I guess you can’t keep a good artist down. Dave Mason’s latest release is called A Shade of Blues.
The album features a collection of some fabulous bluesy tracks, including some reimagined traffic standards and features guest appearances from Michael McDonald and Joe Bonamassa. The album, like the book, are available on his website, DaveMasonMusic.com. Everything can really bring you down When trouble comes You stand on the shaky ground What you need is a brand new way to see Life is what you make It comes down to you and me, yeah Use it or lose it That’s what the man said, yeah Use it or lose it Keeps running since my head And if you wanna quit, baby I suggest you think twice You better do it now Before they put you on ice, yeah Use it or lose it I know you think The sun will always shine Roses and wine So wake up, baby The weather has changed Don’t ever give up hope Cause you can stay in the game, yeah Use it or lose it That’s what the man said, yeah Use it or lose it Think twice You better do it now I’m hoping that, as with most things, everything old is new again and will come full circle and it’ll go back to the way it was. But in the interim, you wouldn’t advise kids to go into the music business as it stands right now, right? If that’s their passion, absolutely I would.
Yeah, if it’s their passion, then yeah, you go pursue it. But I would have sort of my eye on something a little more secure too, if possible. You know, I mean, like anything, it’s a passion.
You have to have a passion for it. For whatever it is you’re doing. Given that you’re someone who doesn’t look back and looks to the future, how do you feel about the future? As a general thing, does it worry you? Or are there bits of it that… Everything worries me.
I know. Hey, it’s whatever it is, you know. We’re all just passing through.
I’m just trying to leave it the best I can, you know. That’s it for me. I’m just… It’s a journey.
Trying to leave some things in a better place than I found. Just you and me. Just you and me.
Dave Mason, what a joy chatting with you again, even though you’re completely evasive. You didn’t tease out a thing. I’ve obviously asked the wrong questions.
You get a free book. I’ll hold you to that. Congratulations on the book.
Congratulations on all the music. Great talking to you as always, Dave Mason. You look after yourself, take care, and thanks for spending the time with us.
All the best. You’re welcome. Thank you.
Bye now. Bye. It’s a beautiful day.
You’ve been listening to A Breath of Fresh Air with Sandy Kaye. Beautiful day. Oh, baby, any day that you’re gone away.
It’s a beautiful day. It’s a beautiful day.