Welcome to A Breath of Fresh Air with Sandy Kaye. Hello and welcome to the show. I hope you’ve been enjoying a terrific week.
Recently we received the news that John Lodge, the bass guitarist, vocalist and songwriter for the iconic rock band, The Moody Blues, had passed away unexpectedly. John had been performing and recording with the band for more than five decades and as a group had sold more than 70 million albums. John also enjoyed a successful solo career and had not long ago released his latest, his fourth solo album.
I’d like to pay homage to John Lodge now by bringing you some of his music and our chat, which was possibly one of the last he ever recorded. I’m sure you’re going to enjoy his story. I was born in Birmingham, England.
I had no formal music education. I actually didn’t follow music at all until I was about 12 years of age and rock and roll turned up in the form of Rock Around the Club, a movie. I remember my sister saying to me when I was 12, she said to me, see you later alligator.
And I thought, what on earth is that all about? Later on when I understood Bill Haley in the comments, I realised it’s all part of the rock and roll generation growing up. And I was besotted. My mother bought a guitar for me when I was 13 from a neighbour.
It cost, I think, £2.10 nothing. And I spent the next 24 hours a day trying to learn this guitar. I just loved it, loved it, loved it.
And then I heard Buddy Holly. That sort of set me on the path. I learned all the Buddy Holly songs on the guitar.
That was it. I just loved it, loved it, loved it. Oh boy, the world can see that you were meant for me.
All my life I’ve been waiting. Tonight there’ll be no hesitating. Oh boy, when you’re with me.
Oh boy, the world can see that you were meant for me. Stars appear and the shadows are falling. You can hear my heart calling.
A little bit of loving makes everything alright. And I’m gonna see my baby tonight. I went to a grammar school in Birmingham and at lunchtime there was a coffee shop and they had a jukebox.
And the jukebox had all rock and roll records by Gene Vincent, Fat Stomino, Little Richard, all the original rockers. And I realised as I was growing up, what I was interested in was the left-hand side of the piano. So on the guitar I started to learn all these riffs that the rock and roll records came with.
And I realised it wasn’t a guitar playing, it was a left-hand side of the piano and also an electric bass guitar. There wasn’t a bass guitar in England and so I never ever saw one. One day I was at my music shop and there in the window it said, direct from the USA, Fender Precision Bass.
And that was it. I bought that bass in 1959 or 1960. Well, I didn’t buy it, my father bought it.
That bass has joined me on this journey. It’s recorded my new album and it’s recorded probably 90% of all the Moody Blues songs I’ve ever recorded. It’s a beautiful instrument and I don’t use it on stage, but for recording there’s something magic about it.
So John, a couple of things I want to ask you about that. Firstly, your parents obviously supported you in your pursuit of music, did they? Yes, I think they realised I had something I really was passionate about. And when I left grammar school, I was 15 when I left, I went to college studying engineering, but I was a musician every evening.
And I think my mother was happy that I was still doing college, because when I was really young I wanted to be a car designer. I heard you were right into cars, that was your passion at the time. Yes, yeah.
So they were very supportive and I remember saying to them when I was 21, that’s it, I’m off to London now. My mother unfortunately passed away not too long ago, and she was 93 and she’s still coming to my concerts. Being in a band like the Moody Blues, my parents got to know Ray’s parents really well and they went on holidays together.
And so it was my mum and dad met other people through my music. So they had met them through the band and formed a friendship? Yeah, and with Graham’s mum and dad as well. It was great, it was a great community for the Moody Blues.
I don’t want you to tell me just what you intend to do now. I’m still in love, we’ve already said. The other question I had on what you’ve just said was in terms of that very special bass guitar that you bought yourself that’s travelled all the way with you.
Not being a musician, I don’t understand the value of a special instrument. Could you explain how does one differ to the next? When you pick a guitar up, they sound pretty much the same. But when I pick this bass up, it seems to become part of me.
I don’t know, it becomes part of me. And when I pick it up today, if I’m in a recording studio and I’m recording, somehow it seems to play on its own. I don’t know why.
I don’t know whether it’s the sound. It feels fantastic. It sits there and I play other basses.
On stage I play what’s called a jazz bass, but it’s a replica from 63, which Fender made for me. It’s got an extra long neck, extra frets. They made another one and the other one doesn’t play the same.
It’s amazing. The factory could put out 20 of the same guitars and what you’re telling me is that each would have its own feel. Yeah, same look, exactly the same, but they are different.
You know, they used to say in Birmingham, if you bought a car, it kept going wrong. It was built on a Friday. You never know, perhaps guitars are the same.
There is a big difference. Yeah. So you had discovered the power of the bass guitar and how it added this whole new dimension of rhythm and energy and emotion to your music.
You went on to do an apprenticeship and started the Certificate in Mechanical Engineering. One day you got a phone call from Ray Thomas that then changed your whole life. Can you tell me about that? Yeah.
Ray Thomas and I were in a band called El White and the Rebels. We used to wear Mexican outfits and even sombreros, could you believe? Why? Well, in those days, you had to have a gimmick, you know, and all the bands in those days were Johnny Kid and the Pirates, Nero and the Gladiators, all that, you know. So we’re El White and the Rebels.
And we were together about four years. And actually, during that time, Mike Pinder from Nudie Blues joined us for a short while. And one day Ray said to me, I’m going to turn professional and we’re going down to London and we’re going to form a super group.
He said, are you coming with me? And I said, oh, I’ve got 18 months to go at college and I’d love to come with you, but I’m going to stay in Birmingham and finish college. They left to form the Nudie Blues about then and released a record called Go Now, which is a Bessie Banks song. And then they had another couple of records released that didn’t do too well at all.
And Ray rang me one day and said, hey rocker, he always called me a rocker, hey rocker, have you finished college yet? I said, I’ve just finished. He said, well, get down to London. We need you.
And so I went down to London and that was it. I knew Graham as well from the early days because Ray and I used to go see Graham appear on a Saturday afternoon with a band called Children of Eden and the Avengers. And I always liked Graham’s drumming.
All our lives were spent together. Do you know why they called themselves the Nudie Blues to start with? Yeah, they had a promise from a brewery in England, in Birmingham, called Mitchell’s and Butler’s, M&B. And they wanted to sponsor the band.
So they called it the M&B Five. Then Mitchell’s and Butler’s dropped the idea. They didn’t want to sponsor a band anymore, but they still had been working as M&B Five.
So they dropped the five and they had M&B. And I think Ray and Mike came up to the name from a song called Indigo Blue and the Nudies. In the 60s, to be Nudie was really cool.
You know, hey, you’re really Nudie. And so Nudie Blues. And for 15 years, all our photographs, none of them are with us smiling.
Because you had to be Nudie. Nudie, yeah. Nudie, yeah.
I’ve got to find out why, those gentle voices I hear, explain it all with a sigh. So Nudie is, as I understand it, to mean Nudie, sort of sullen. Yeah.
That was the N-word to mean that. Yeah, cool, cool. It’s like the kinks, kinky, you know, all 60s type.
Yes, that’s right. It was a very special time, the 60s, wasn’t it? And growing up in Birmingham, where all the musical action was coming from, must have been incredible. It was.
And when you think about the artists from Birmingham, like Black Sabbath, Stevie Winbread, Spencer Davis, Earlow, Jeff Lynne, Roy Wood, he goes on and on and on, you know, Ozzy Osbourne goes on. It’s no wonder everybody wanted to be in music, with the calibre of those musicians. Yeah, but also Birmingham itself was really good because in the parks every year, they’d have competitions for the best bands from that area.
And then if you won in your area, you went to the final. You know, it’s great competition. It doesn’t happen today, does it? It’s not the same at all anymore.
No, it’s not the same anymore. But, you know, we all have to learn our own way through it. So that was 1966 when you received that call from Ray Thomas and went down to London and joined the boys as part of the Moody Blues.
What happens next? We started rehearsing. And the one thing I said to Ray and Mike, I really don’t want to play cover songs. And they said, we don’t either.
That’s why we started writing our own songs. So we started writing songs. Then we moved to Belgium.
And the reason was that we had an agent over there that wanted to put us in the local clubs. And we thought it was a great idea to write our songs, practice them, rehearse them and play them in a club. And that’s what we did.
We wrote 45 minutes of a stage show, which most of it became Days of Future Past, actually. So it was kind of like a writing retreat. Yeah, yeah, it was.
It was fabulous. Actually, while we were there, we got a call from Tom Jones’s manager and he said, hi guys, how many songs have you rehearsed? And we said about 20 minutes. He said, okay, get to Paris then.
You’re second on the bill to Tom Jones. It was fantastic.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. On the advice of Tom Jones’s manager, and after they’d opened for him in Paris, the Moody Blues headed back to London.
He obviously knew of the band, and he must have known we were in Belgium, I suppose. And Tom Jones was already a big deal at that time, yeah? Yeah, he only had, really, it’s not unusual. This is 1966, and it was top of the bill in Paris.
It was really fun, and we got to know Tom, obviously, from there on in. It’s not unusual to be loved by anyone It’s not unusual to have fun with anyone But when I see you hanging about with anyone It’s not unusual to see me cry I wanna die It’s not unusual to go out at any time But when I see you out and about it’s such a crime If you should ever wanna be loved by anyone It’s not unusual, it happens every day No matter what you say You’ll find it happens all the time Love will never do what you want it to do Why can’t this crazy love be more? From that time, and with that agent, your careers just took off. Well, we went back to England, and we were still wandering around doing concerts.
The venues wouldn’t book us, because they said we can’t dance to you. But a lot of the venues, like colleges and universities and clubs realised it was different. If people wanted to sit down on the dance floor and listen to the music, they would.
And that’s what happened to us. We found a new road to go. Not the normal road with all the other bands.
We went on this other road, playing our own music. It started to grow from there, and then Decca Records asked us to make this album which became Days of Future Past. The rest is history.
Absolutely. How did you decide between you the direction that you were going to head in? I don’t even know what genre to put you guys in. You couldn’t fit you straight into a box anywhere, could you? No, you could say it was the biggest accident ever.
Because it was our own personalities that came out in our own songwriting. We were not reliant on anyone else, all the songs we were writing. We used to sit down around a coffee table, and we said, when we write these songs, they’ve got to be about lyrics that will stand by in 20 years’ time.
That’s where our future was, 20 years, we thought. Because you’ve got to be able to stand by and say, this is what I believe at that time in my life. And that way, you’re going to relate to other people growing up at that same time in their lives.
Not in the same year, could we? 20 years later, 30 years later, 40 years. But we all go through very similar thought patterns. It’s the technology that changes, but I think we all have the same thought patterns.
And our individual thought patterns came out in these songs. Ray used to love writing about little children and balloons flying and all that. He loved fishes, he loved that.
And Graham was a great poet, you know, breathe deep the gathering gloom. And so all our personality came out, and that formed the Moody Blues. Leaning to Santa Beauty I’d always missed With these eyes before Just what the truth is I can’t say anymore Because I love you Yes, I love you Oh, I love you Gazing at people Some hand in hand Just what I’m going through They can’t understand Some try to tell me Thoughts they cannot defend Just what you want to be You will be in the end And I love you Yes, I love you Oh, I love you We used to say, when we sat around this coffee table and sang one of our songs to the other guys, once you sang the song, it was no longer yours.
It was the band’s. And you respected everyone’s ideas what to do with the song. And that’s how we grew the Moody Blues that way.
So you were always respectful of something that would come out from one of the other guys. And did you always agree that, yeah, that’s a good song, we’ll take that one? Or sometimes did somebody come up with something and you go, no, we hate it. Was it a democratic process? No, the diplomatic process was if one of the guys believed in the song, we had to make it work.
Really? And that’s what we did. And we never, ever, I don’t think we ever, ever said no to any song throughout our career. I can’t remember saying no to anything.
And it didn’t matter if one song didn’t have anything to do with the next song, or was it a completely different feel? It didn’t matter at all. Well, when we used to sit around the coffee table, not drinking coffee, but it was a communal thing, we used to say, what’s this next album? What should it be about? And then we would talk about it. And then we’d come up with a loose theme of what the album should be about.
And then that focused your attention on what you could write that goes with that theme. And that’s what we did with all the albums. I guess in part that’s what made you such a different band.
Yeah, probably. We didn’t think about any other bands, nothing at all. We just carried on with Moody Blues.
Yeah. So what was your focus, John? What was your personality? What did you like to write about? Well, I liked about life, philosophy, rock and roll. Combine them all together.
Like Ride My Seesaw, I think there’s some philosophy in there, but also the rock and roll track. A singer in a rock and roll band is about me and about actually the war in Vietnam as well. Although it’s a rock and roll song, it’s a reflection on that, and rides by the people for the people who were only destroying this world and scorching this earth.
That was the little girl in Vietnam who was on fire. That picture just shocked me. There’s us doing rock and roll on the stage having a great time, and there’s the other people having a real rough time.
Yeah. It was trying to put the two things together. That’s why I said that I really can’t do much better because I’m just a singer in a rock and roll band.
I think I’m trying to find some truth in there. My love songs are love songs in a different way than they are, like Lean On Me Today. But that’s probably philosophy, rock and roll, and life.
So you were all very deep thinkers and obviously quite intellectual as well. Did you believe that music had the power to change things in the world, or was it simply a way to express yourself and what you were feeling? Oh, I think it did. I think it had enormous effect.
We were in Prague doing concerts where the Russians invaded, and we were talking to people in Czechoslovakia, and they couldn’t believe the freedom we had and the freedom they didn’t have. I think rock and roll did break those barriers down, and I think it did have enormous effect because young people all over the world, as I said earlier, all had those hopes and dreams that we had, but some of us could do it and some weren’t allowed to. You were serious young insects in that band, weren’t you? You took your music and the lyrics very seriously.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I did, yeah. I still do think.
Yeah, I wanted to be truthful to them. I don’t want somebody to come and say, why did you say this? You don’t believe that. I always wanted to say, yeah, I do believe it.
Even if you’re wrong, you do. I, I, I Wish I could be in your heart You’d be one with your heart Does it amaze you that 50 years later, in some cases, the songs you wrote still ring true? I find them amazing every day. Every day.
Especially by re-recording a new version of Days of Future Past, you know, the response to it has been fantastic. Not just to my album, but the response to the songs which were written 55 years ago. The response has been incredible.
So it always amazes me. It always amazes me that someone comes to the concert and watches. What was behind redoing this album? Why did you decide to do it? It was the, the Moody Blues really, we had stopped working together.
And I wanted to celebrate. We did a very small tour on the anniversary of Days of Future Past in 2018. 50 years.
Yeah. And we did a very small tour and we stopped. Why? Finished.
Well, I don’t know, but it was stopped. I thought, what a shame, you know, there’s so many people would like to listen to the album live. And I didn’t think of it.
I went on tour with my own band and then COVID came along and I wrote some songs during COVID, released those. And I was talking one day with my keyboard player and my daughter, Emily, manages me. And I said, you know, could we do Days of Future Past on stage with total credibility? Alan Hewitt, my keyboard player, was with me for 15 years in the Moody Blues anyway.
And I said, Alan, can we do this? And we talked about it for ages and we said, let’s try it. And so we went to rehearsals and the rehearsals were prolonged for a long time. Not all together, but one at a time, two at a time.
And it started to grow. And I realised, yeah, we could do this concert live. And after about 18 months, we had our final rehearsals and I realised it would work.
And as we were approaching my agent to do the tour in America, I think Emily said it, she said, it’s such a shame we’ve got to do this live. You could go in the studio and re-record it so it’s a historical event, but in 2023 or 22. And because it’s slightly different, because the technology is different and the playing is different, but the essence of the album is still the same.
That’s what I wanted, the essence of the album. And so we went to the studio, started recording. I went to Graeme Edge and I said to Graeme, Graeme, I’m thinking about doing Days of Future Past on stage.
Would you record all the poetry from Days of Future Past for me? And I’m going to film you. And you always have a place on stage with me. And he said he’d love to.
And he said, John, just keep the Moody Blues music alive. And of course, I didn’t realise Graeme would pass away before he actually saw the concert.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. Graeme Edge passed away from cancer in 2021 at the age of 80.
He previously suffered a stroke in 2016. John had sought and received his recordings, so the album went ahead. That was it really.
Yeah, it sounds fabulous. You didn’t meet any resistance in using all of that material? No, no, no, no. I had all the regional artwork people doing all these great sleeves for me.
And it was my wife’s birthday. And there’s a place called Paines Hill Park here in Cobham. And it’s like an 18th century grotto and everything and hundreds of acres.
And we went for a walk there. And my daughter-in-law photographs everything. And she took a photograph of my wife and I walking through the woods.
And when I saw the photograph, I said, that is the album. That is my album. Days of Future Past, My Surgeon.
That is the exact what I wanted. And I didn’t think about it. I said, that’s it.
And I rang my daughter-in-law up and said, your picture’s the sleeve of my album. I’ll buy you a cup of coffee. Future fields.
This day will last. A thousand years. If you want it to.
John Lodge, you’ve written so many awesome songs over the years. And I know that the songs, like the guitars, are all like your children and it’s hard to pick between them. But I’m going to ask you two anyway.
Is there one that’s the closest to your heart? It’s difficult. If you mention one that doesn’t involve my wife. You get in trouble.
If I say one that doesn’t involve my daughter, I’m in trouble. If I say one that doesn’t involve my son, I’m in trouble. And if I say one that doesn’t involve my grandson, I’m in trouble.
But probably Isn’t Life Strange. Because it’s a magical song for me. Because it seemed to write itself one day.
And I love performing it on stage. And the band, my band, the Ten Thousand Light Year band, plays incredibly well. Really, really well.
Probably Isn’t Life Strange. Because it is. That’s for sure.
That’s totally indisputable. Very, very strange. So how long were you with Moody Blues for? Till we stopped in 2018.
All the way? From the mid-60s? 66 to, yeah. The picture you’ve painted of you guys together was one of really being on the same page and harmonious. Was it always like that? Yeah, pretty much so.
You know, the thing is, obviously, there’s times when people get tired and fed up with each other. But we didn’t have any cause. We didn’t have, like, two people going out together in the band.
Only two could go out. You know, we were… Mix and match. Yeah.
The friendship seemed to mix everything, different. We all had our own ideas of who we were and our own independence. So whatever you wanted to do on off days, you could say, oh, he would like to do that, we’ll do that.
Oh, he’ll like to, you know. And so we were pretty good. We were pretty harmoniously, to be honest.
There was obviously times when we didn’t. But not so much to break a band up. Not so much to… It was always, oh, I was sorry about last night or, you know.
Yeah, because there are not too many bands that do manage to stay together for that long a period of time. No, no. That’s quite amazing.
And I’m sure the relationship that you all shared really contributed to the harmonious nature of the music too. I think so, because you have, you know, when you write a song and you play it to the other guys, you are standing there pretty naked, you know. You’re baring your soul, you know.
And inward, whatever you think, you have to think to yourself, I wonder if they really like this song. And you are opening yourself up… To judgment. To judgment, yeah.
Yeah. Ridicule of love. Yeah.
You hope it’s love that they’re going to respect the song and do everything for you. Well, from what you’ve said so far, it seemed like there was a lot of love to go around a lot of times. Yeah, it did really work.
Yeah. Did it take you a long time to write songs or sometimes they just roll off your pen very quickly? Well, I don’t know. I never set… I don’t think I ever sat down to start writing songs.
I play every day and I write every day. It may be rubbish, you know, but when you’ve become focused on a particular one song you want to do, it never really works, because you write songs that way, which are a formula, you know? The songs you want to write are the ones where it’s automatic writing and your pen doesn’t want to stop. I think the more you play and investigate your guitar, you hear different harmonics and sometimes the harmonics set you out on a path that you can write a tune.
Right. So the tune comes first and the lyrics afterwards? Normally, sometimes I get the starting line of the song and then I write the song around the starting line. Like, Isn’t Life Strange? Isn’t Life Strange? I nearly had Isn’t Life Strange when I wrote it.
It didn’t matter what it was. I knew I’d find the lyrics once I’d mastered the melody and the chord progression. Right.
And, John Lodge, would you say your writing’s changed a lot over the years? I mean, obviously it’s matured and grown, as you have, but from some of your more recent songs, perhaps, you know, The Sun Will Shine, for example? Why don’t you tell me you’re lonely? You keep telling me you’re seeking. Don’t you know it’s only a game you’re playing? Any fool can see You’re lost in your own illusion How important you can be Life that is not awake The sun will shine Perhaps, they’re probably simpler. You know, probably simpler.
I think when we started through the 60s, 70s, it was probably more progressive that way. But, nowadays, you know, recently, like, in these crazy times, I wrote that during COVID, and it was about COVID. I recorded that on GarageBand in my room.
The whole thing, on GarageBand. I learned GarageBand and recorded that song. And then The Sun Will Shine was about coming out of COVID, which is important for me.
How are we going to get out of this? Are we going to re-evaluate our life and our lifestyles? And I don’t think we have reached that point yet. So, I think the songwriting, probably, I say that, I’ve just written a new song, is more complicated than anything I’ve written for the last 10 years. But, probably simpler.
Generally simpler. And when are we going to see this new song? I don’t know. After Days of Future Past, my sojourn has run around.
I’ve recorded, mixed it, and mastered it, and it’s ready to go. You said that Days of Future Past is getting some great response from people all over the world. I can imagine that it’s being introduced to an entirely new generation that never heard the original at all.
Is that what you’re finding? Yeah, that’s what I’m hoping will happen. And, actually, I don’t know, on the sleeve notes or on a press release, I said, through this album, I hope people will look into the original album and the vocals of Mike and Ray and Justin and myself and experience what we were experiencing in 1966. Yeah, I’ve actually got those words in front of me, and it says, I’m hoping that this will bring a new generation of listeners to the album, that they may then rediscover the original recording and the beautiful vocals of Mike Pinder, Justin Hayward, Ray Thomas and myself.
I dedicate this album to Graham, Justin, Mike and Ray, to Tony Clark and to all the fans that are with me on this sojourn, no matter when you joined. And you wrote that from John Lodge in July 2023. What beautiful words.
Oh, thank you. They’d be so proud of you. I’m proud of them.
I’m proud of them. The success that you guys achieved in your wildest dreams, you could have never imagined doing that, could you? No, no. We never thought about it, actually.
I would say never thought about it, because if you think about it, it can be all taken away in the blink of an eye. So the important thing is to just carry on, you know, carry on what you’re doing and hope people enjoy it. I guess those words are quite profound and apply to anybody doing anything, don’t they? That would be a kind of message from you to anybody listening in terms of a life lesson.
I think so, yeah. I think so, yeah. I think so.
It’s like I don’t do hypothetical. It doesn’t come into my life. And I don’t think you should ruin anyone’s because you get lost in a maelstrom of fog that way because you never know what would happen in a hypothetical position.
Yeah, you’ve always kept it real. You’re not changing your view. No.
This is the song that John Lodge wanted to leave us with. It’s the last song he ever wrote called Whispering Angels and it’s certainly befitting. John Lodge, what an absolute delight chatting with you.
You’ve been so generous with your time and I’m so grateful. Congratulations on this re-recording. If I can say, it almost sounds better than the original.
You’re doing brilliant work. Thank you very much. Thank you for keep on and so we could make this interview.
Thank you. I wasn’t giving up. I’m like a bit of a terrier.
Thank you very much, Sandy. Thank you very much. What a lovely and talented man, voted as one of the top ten most influential bass players on the planet.
John’s passing now means Justin Hayward is the last living member of the original Moody Blues.