Welcome to A Breath of Fresh Air with Sandy Kaye. Hello and welcome to the show. Have you ever asked yourself what it takes to turn the bass guitar into the heartbeat of a global phenomenon? I bet you haven’t, but that’s exactly what we’re exploring today.
In this episode, we celebrate the life and legacy of Verdeen White, the dynamic bassist and founding member of Earth, Wind & Fire. From the band’s early days, fusing funk, soul, jazz and R&B into something entirely their own, to becoming one of the most exhilarating live acts in modern music, Verdeen’s huge stage presence and razor-sharp grooves help define a sound that still fills dance floors decades later. We’ll look at Verdeen’s early musical influences, the family connection that helped shape his path, the work ethic behind that unmistakable tone and the way he transformed the role of the bass player from the backline to centre stage.
Let’s dive in, shall we? How are you doing today? I’m really, really good. Verdeen, you came from such a musical family. When did you first discover music? We’re from a big family and we love music.
We had a great time doing music. My dad was a physician and played saxophone and of course, Maurice, the icon, was already playing drums, my brother Fred. So yes.
A lot of music around the house, a lot of listening coming from Chicago, you know, listening to jazz, blues, R&B, Miles Davis, John Coltrane. When I look back at it, it was good that I came from the Midwest because I was able to listen to all different types of styles of music. I think if I grew up in New York, I probably would have been leaning towards just jazz, hard bop.
But in the Midwest, because of the nature of the part of the country where it was, you know, I was doing a lot of listening of different types of music. So that was the first time I got the bug. And then we had Motown.
Those elements really put music out there, you know, in front of the national audience. My older brother, Maurice, already being in the business as a drummer for Chess Records was a big help. He played on all those hit records, Chess Records, and he had been playing with Ramsey Lewis.
My first bass guitar influence was Louis Satterfield. Great player. He played on a lot of those hit records with Maurice, Rescue Me, Chess Records.
He worked with the late Charles Stepney. Just a great, great bass player. Great concept.
He was originally a trombone player. So he had really a lot of great concepts in terms of music. And I used to go over to his house every Sunday for like five years, and he would teach me like modes and teach me how to play in the studio, and he would put pieces of paper down to show me what it would be like in the studio when a chart would come by, learning how to read charts.
And during the week, I would study classically on upright bass from Roddy Vallave from Chicago Symphony Orchestra. So I had the best of both worlds. I had the classical background during the week, and then on weekends, I had Satterfield.
And then I played nightclubs, top ten. It was a great learning experience. And then when Maurice asked me to come out to California, it really took my playing up to another level.
Was there much competition between you and he or were you really collaborating? No, not at all. Not at all, because he was 10 years older. So you know, mutually it was like he was my mentor, my guy.
And he was very happy to take you under his wing and show you the ropes. Yeah, because he could mold me. Is that what he did? Yes, he sure did.
And I know that you just idolized Maurice, didn’t you, from a very early age? So it wasn’t until he moved to Los Angeles to start this group that he invited you to join. Was that when it really all first began for you? For me, yes, it did. It was the beginning of my career, so to speak.
It was at the very, very beginning, yes. But how did you decide to take up playing bass in the first place? When I went to orchestra class, I saw it, it spoke to me. And when I saw it, I loved it ever since.
And then Maurice got me an upright bass from one of his buddies, and I started taking lessons. And then his buddy, the late Louis Satterfield, who was also in the Phoenix Horns and a bass guitar player and also the bass player on all those chess records, was my teacher. I would practice like 10, 12 hours a day.
When I’m off, I still practice an hour a day now, just to hear the sound and kind of go back to the basics, you know, without lights, without stage. There’s no bells. There’s no stage.
You’re in the instrument, you know, and that’s how I learned. I learned how to read early, you know, how to read early, and then listening, and then creating my own charts, chord changes, different things. I kind of had my own technique, and it gave me an opportunity to sort of like, you know, create my own style.
By doing the classical thing, I had that, and by being with, you know, Satterfield and those guys, I had a chance to learn music and learning how to play in the studio at a young age. Bass as opposed to any other instrument? Oh, you know, drums. Everybody played drums in the family, but I’m glad I didn’t.
I never would have had a job. Then I took piano lessons a little bit, which I do recommend, you know, that you do study piano because then the piano has all the chords, the harmonic structure that a bass player would need to kind of know where the chords are harmonically. It helps your pitch.
So your dad, you said, was a physician as well as a saxophonist. Did he encourage you guys to go into music, or did he have other dreams for you? Well, he probably had other dreams because he was a doctor. But basically he wanted us to stay off the street, practice, just do our thing.
So he was pretty happy when that’s exactly what you did? Yes. Yeah, he was elated. He was elated.
Tell me a little bit about what happened when you first went to Los Angeles. What was it like? Well, at that time, you know, L.A. was like wild. Everything was busy.
It was an incredible time in California. In what way? Can you elaborate? Well, so many people here. I had never seen so many people, hippies, music, the nightclubs, the other artists.
So it was a big music town at the time. Absolutely. It still is, but in a different way.
Right. And did you find it intimidating? No, I was too young to be intimidated. I wasn’t smart enough to be intimidated.
So you were simply excited about what the prospects were? It was wide open, wide open. And what were you hoping for? What were your personal dreams? Oh, great music, success, not going back to Chicago until I made it. Those kind of dreams.
You said that you’d learned a lot of your bass work from the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. You had private lessons at the time. At the time.
And then I worked with Lewis Satterfield, wonderful bass guitar player, played with Maurice. He was my main influence. So you were pretty determined to get good at that bass.
You put a lot of time and effort into it. Yeah, I put a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of good stuff, you know. Just back to Los Angeles then, in 1970, he decides to move and he renames the group that he has.
It was originally called the Salty Peppers. Is that right? The Salty Peppers. That’s right.
That’s right. It was Ramsey Lewis’s trio. That’s right.
So what brought about the change and the new name? I just think it was time for him to make a change. I think he saw something he wanted to do. And why Earth, Wind & Fire? Because there were no water in his astrological chart.
He believed in the astrological chart, did he? Sure, at that time, yes. The turning point came for me was when Maurice brought me to California. And I was still in school.
I was on scholarship. I was, you know, I was paid for, it was conservatory music, which was a big deal. And from the time I was like 13, 14, 18, things happened very fast.
In retrospect, I wasn’t really ready. That was before we were Earth, Wind & Fire, before we became successful. So that was like five, six years before the world found out.
Okay. So how many of you were first employed to be part of Earth, Wind & Fire? Well, I came out and then, of course, Philip Bailey and Ralph Johnson and Larry Dunn, you know, Al McCabe. It was a great way to start.
And how did you start off? What did the road look like for you in the beginning? We were very lucky. We ran into some great people, great managers, but we had to work hard for it, though. We worked hard for it.
What does work hard for it mean? Rehearsals, practicing, rehearsals, practicing. And each of the members was as serious as you guys were about? I think we all are. Because don’t forget now, it was a big thing, you know, like, you know, now it was a big thing.
Earth, Wind & Fire is a household name. But then it wasn’t that big, so we had to work at it. A couple of records for another couple of labels, Warner Brothers, but it was really when we signed to Clive Davis that we knew we were on our way, that we were going to be successful.
But we had a few records before that, you know, so by the time we got to Clive, we were ready. Then that’s really when the real journey began, you know, traveling around the whole country, opening up for other people. You know, we were opening act.
Uriah Heep, Rod Stewart, Curtis Mayfield, Gladys Knight, Bart Kayes, it was really exciting because we were doing something nobody else had ever done. Every year got better and better. The sound of Earth, Wind & Fire was different from the outset, wasn’t it? What was it created around? Horns, rhythm section, things like that, yes.
And you didn’t have very much competition then? It was always competition, you know. The horns was one thing, but you also became known for that signature sound of fusing pop with R&B and rock and Latin jazz and African music. Was that a collaborative process between you guys to come up with that sound or was that purely Maurice? It was a collaborative, you know, Maurice was the leader, the spearhead of it.
But he definitely came up with the full concept. What was he drawing on? What he was drawing on, his concept as a drummer, his jazz background, all of that played into it, yes. What sort of music did he particularly like? Oh, he loved jazz, he loved R&B, you know, anything with a great beat.
And that’s what he wanted Earth, Wind & Fire to be going forward? Absolutely, absolutely.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. Maurice had already built a huge reputation as a session drummer, working with artists like Etta James and Muddy Waters, but he wanted to create something far more ambitious, a band that blended soul, funk, jazz, rock, gospel and African influences into a completely new sound.
In Los Angeles, Maurice surrounded himself with young, adventurous musicians, including his younger brother, Verdine, who quickly became a key part of the group’s identity. From the start, Earth, Wind & Fire weren’t interested in fitting into one genre. Their music featured complex rhythms, rich harmonies, spiritual themes and a strong emphasis on groove.
♪ Earth, Wind & Fire’s earliest performances were in small clubs around LA, where audiences were struck by their tight musicianship and Maurice’s bigger artistic vision. Those early LA years were about experimentation, discipline and belief. Maurice White wasn’t just forming a band.
He was building a musical movement, and with Verdine’s energetic bass playing helping anchor the sound, the band were already on their way to becoming one of the most influential groups of the 20th century. Even the records in the beginning that weren’t successful, Maurice always had a very strong concept. You know, if you go back and listen to records that, the very, very first records, they had a definite concept to them.
Still had a foundation and it just kept growing and growing. So Maurice had a, he had a vision of what he wanted to hear and we helped him with that vision of putting it together because you have to understand there was no band prior to that doing that kind of music and that kind of musicianship. You said you worked hard, you practiced hard.
I guess you would have gone out and done as many gigs as you possibly could. How quickly or slowly did it take audiences to catch on to Earth, Wind & Fire? Took at least, I think a good three, four years, five years, yes. Is that right? Yes, it wasn’t overnight.
It seems like it was, but it wasn’t. It absolutely does, certainly from this end, but I guess they must have been very frustrating on some level those years for you and you must have had to have a lot of stamina and a lot of commitment in order to work through that time to get where you wanted to be. Yeah, it wasn’t, you know, you understand when you’re starting something that it’s going to be a road, a difficult road.
It’s going to be, you know, it’s not overnight and you don’t want it to be overnight because it’ll be over overnight. Right. So each member understood that you were building something and it would take time.
The building blocks, right. The building blocks, yes. Right.
So did anybody ever get frustrated with that road or everybody sort of paved it? Not from where I was sitting, not from where I was sitting. What was it like for you? It was great. It was fun.
It was like I was in college, you know, doing that, and I had left college before and working on music was great. I was finally a musician. And I’ve sent a message to you.
Everybody in the band got on really well together? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because, I mean, sometimes that’s really difficult. You have to spend so many hours, days, weeks, months together.
It’s a bit like a family and you have your fights and the rest. But we were good. Always good.
Yeah. When did you actually start writing for the band? Around the middle 70s, middle 70s, right, late 70s, as I kind of learned what songwriting was. So it was well and truly after the band had broken because it was 71 when Earth, Wind & Fire released their self-titled debut album.
And that one was the soundtrack for the film Sweet Sweetback’s Badass. Is that right? That’s right. Then Earth, Wind & Fire, then Need of Love, yes.
And how were they received? They were great. Well, at that particular time, they were like underground records, whereas Sweet Sweetback was like it was the first black exploitation movie that I think that did a million sales or something like that. Wow.
Apart from Motown, was there a ceiling that you had to break through as a black group at that time? I guess, but I didn’t notice it as much. Maurice noticed it more than I did, yes. Did he talk about it? No.
You know, you just do music. You don’t get too heavy about it, you know. Okay.
So those two albums did pretty well for you, and you started to become more than just cult figures then, didn’t you? Right. Then we started, then we worked with Clive Davis. We signed with Columbia Records after we left Warner Brothers, and that was a great situation for us.
It must have been amazing to work with Clive Davis. Was it him that approached you? I just saw him last weekend at the Clive Davis party. What was it like at the time? What sort of new hope or freshness or promises did he bring to the band? Well, he brought Columbia Records.
Once you got on Columbia Records, you know, being there with Bruce Springsteen, being there with Neil Diamond, all the big acts, you know. And how did that feel for you to be on the same label as those sort of acts? Well, as you see right behind me, you see the Rip labels, right? Uh-huh. That’s Columbia Records.
Well, it obviously felt very good to start with because it ended brilliantly. Yes, absolutely. Was Clive Davis very hands-on in guiding you through that process to achieve…? He made great suggestions.
You know, he was a little hands-on, but it was not bad, though. He understood artists. They had the heart of an artist.
Right. So what was his guidance? He believed in what we had from the very beginning. And that must have been very refreshing.
I mean, how convinced were you guys that the sound that you had was the one you needed to reach the heights of success? I knew we were going to be successful. I’ll come out to California, and after five years, it will be over, and then I’ll go back to Chicago. I’ll get a teaching job, and I was going to do that.
It went from five to ten years, to 15, to 20, to 25, to 30. He loved what we were doing, and then right after that, we brought in Charles Stepney, who helped Maurice. Ranger, writer, producer, great.
Right. Charles was our George Martin because he was more experienced. He was older.
He would talk to us about music. He was very supportive. He helped us get better.
So for us, I think for any young person to have those two types of leaders and mentors was the best thing because you learned it on the job, but you learned it in a good, loving way. I mean, you still had to work hard. You had to put the hours in, but it was still great to do.
Heart of fire Creates love Desire Creates love On a special day Sing our message loud and clear Looking back, we’ve touched on some good days Future past, they disappear Goodbye, it’s all gone When you look way down in your heart and soul Don’t hesitate, cause the worst things come Stay young at heart Cause you’ll never, never know Never know, never know That’s the way, that’s the way Find the way, find the way Plant your flowers, plant your flowers And you’ll grow, grow, grow Child of God, you’ll grow Find the way, find the way Plant your flowers, plant your flowers There were a lot of songs that Charles was writing with Maurice in the mid-70s. Can you recall one of your favourites of those? Oh, they all were great. There wasn’t a bad song that Charles didn’t do, they were all great.
And they started taking off very fast then, didn’t they? Yeah, it went definitely at a steady clip. How did life change for you as you became more and more popular? We got busy, busy, busy. So it kind of was all, I’ve heard artists tell me in the past as the success comes, life turns into a whole whirlwind and you don’t know whether you’re up, you’re down, you’re just going with the wind.
Just go with the flow. Yeah? Was it an enjoyable time or too crazy? No, it was great because, you know, we were kids, you know, when you’re kids, man, you know. It’s great.
Lots of energy and lots of enthusiasm. Absolutely. You said you started writing in the mid-seventies.
Mid-seventies, late-seventies, yes. Was that as a result of your wanting to or, I mean, did you have to… It was just an evolution. You know, you have ideas about doing music and things like that and then you just jump in it and do your thing.
Right. I mean, you had written songs already like Come On Children and Bad Tune. Yeah, that’s right.
In the rhythm section, yes. So it seems like it was a very democratic band. Everybody got a say, everybody got to play their part.
Everyone was equal. Absolutely. And your writing continued because I know that you co-wrote three songs on the third album, Last Days in Time.
And on the fourth album, also Head to the Sky, you were putting out albums one after another. Were you on deadline for albums? Was it the record company that said you’ve got to, you know, have one out every single year or was that your choice? At that time it was two a year. Wow, that’s heavy.
So apart from playing, apart from rehearsing, you had to do a lot of writing and recording. Sure, sure. That’s a lot of pressure.
A lot of time in that studio. It was a lot. So did you have any life outside of music? Yeah, my life was music, you know.
Your life was music. Yes. I love Fabulous Philip Bailey.
But what’s interesting now, everywhere you go, there’s always one of our songs on the radio. I think there’s every minute and 15 seconds across the world, they’re playing an Earth, Wind & Fire song.
This is a breath of fresh air with Sandy Kaye. It’s a beautiful day. It doesn’t sound like you would have had too much time to even spend the money that you were making.
Yeah, yeah. Alright, so you keep going. You didn’t see it as such a pressure to put out two albums a year.
The fifth one you co-wrote the group’s first top five R&B soul hit in Mighty Mighty along with Maurice. Where did you take the inspiration from? What were you drawing on yourself in order to write? You know, it was the time, you know, Black Power, Mighty Mighty, you know, things like that, you know. Had the political situation changed very much that you had seen or was it really changing then in the mid-seventies? It’s exactly what you said.
It was in a changing situation, yes. Right, so you could really feel that change and the wave going through. That’s right.
It was easy to write, you know, because of that. You were actually living it. Yeah, right.
So things were becoming easier for you? Not easy or hard. It’s just what it was, is, you know. What sort of changes did you see around you? Well, it was not anything obvious.
It was just part of what the world was going through. What did that process look like between you and Maurice? How did you go about writing? Well, us, Philip Bailey, myself, you know, it was a great collaborative process. So what does that mean? That you all sit down and pitch in a line or talk about something? Right, exactly.
You pitch in, you throw something in here, you throw something in there, yes. And how long would it have taken to write a hit like that? I don’t know. I mean, are we talking like minutes, hours, days, weeks? No, days, days, not minutes.
You obviously wanted each song to be just right, if not perfect. Yeah. You keep coming back to it all the time and finessing it? Yeah, you just, you know, because you’re always tweaking.
And I guess Maurice had the final say and gave it the seal of approval. He was a writer, producer, leader, absolutely. You really admired him a lot, didn’t you? Absolutely.
So nice. The years keep going by and you’re still putting out album after album. The single Devotion gave you your first number one album.
Can you tell us a little bit about that? It just felt good. It just felt good, you know. You guys weren’t so much about prolific lyrics.
It was more about the beat, the feel, and what it instilled in an audience. Well, and I guess in yourselves, the feeling, right? It was all about the feeling? Absolutely. The sound, the vibe, the chords, you know.
The production. All of it combined. All of it together.
I was alone, I took a ride, didn’t know what I would find. There, you can see another side. There’s a blessing.
I believe you guys were known as having been the first African-American performers to sell out Madison Square Garden. At that time, yeah. That would have been an amazing feeling.
Yes, amazing. Yeah, you were really breaking through. Absolutely, absolutely.
Earth, Wind & Fire Verdeen reached unbelievable heights. You’re still doing it after, what is it, nearly 50 years or so now. Did you ever expect that you’d be quite this big? No, you don’t expect it.
You just go with it. And you grow with it. You grow with it.
What does that growth arc look like for you? It’s hard to describe. It just goes on it’s own. It goes on it’s own.
Was there ever a time that you wanted to jump ship? Oh no, no. You’ve been there from the inception, and you’re still very much there now. Yes, considerably.
You’ve had so many accolades. You’ve received eight Grammys, four American Music Awards, the NAACP Image Award, and the BET Lifetime Achievement Awards. You’ve received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame in 1995.
You’ve been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. You’ve recorded more than 50 gold and platinum albums. I’m exhausted just reading that list.
I can’t imagine how you must be. Did each subsequent album and or performance give you more energy, or did it suck energy from you? No, it gave me more energy. It gave me more energy just to keep on keeping.
But it must have been so difficult if you were putting out two albums a year to keep writing songs that were as good as the last ones. That’s an incredible pressure to have on your shoulders. I think for anybody who was doing the same thing.
Yet you guys managed to do that time after time after time. At that time, yes. And you became so great on the bass that you’ve even ranked number 27 on bass players list of the 100 greatest bass players of all time.
I didn’t know that. You’re certainly not playing as much these days as you used to, are you? We’re going out on tour this summer, yes. Tell me a little bit about that upcoming tour.
Well, we’ll be going out with Lionel Richie this summer and our second time with Lionel. We’re going to be doing a spring tour. So far, so good.
And we’re coming there, so we’ll see you there soon. Let’s just talk about that for a minute then. What can we expect to see from Earth, Wind & Fire in Australia this time? We’re going to bring a lot of joy, a lot of happiness.
It’s going to be a lot of fun. A lot, a lot, a lot of fun. Can’t wait.
Are we going to see you play all your biggest hits? Well, that’s what we come there for. You can’t come that far and not play those hits. The songs that we’ve played are great.
They’re great songs. Do you have a personal favorite amongst all your hits? Oh, my God. After all those hits, it’s hard to have a favorite, but one of my favorites is Fantasy.
And September, probably, there’s undoubtedly, I think it’s probably the fifth most popular song in the history of music. Ironically, out of all the songs we did, that’s the one of the ones. And it’s one of the most popular songs in the world.
And if they don’t even know us, they know the song. Everybody knows that song. Every band that’s been successful has a song.
And we were lucky that that was the song. Do you never get tired of playing the same songs? No. What’s it like going on tour with Lionel? Oh, well, he’s great.
He’s fantastic. His show is great, too. And he’s still, obviously, still pulling in huge crowds.
Absolutely. Yes. So you’re going right across the U.S. with him? Yes.
Now, the other thing I wanted to talk to you about, Vadim, before I let you go, I mean, we’ve already heard stories about your love of Maurice, but it was just recently that you actually wrote a song and dedicated it to him. Oh, yes, Superman. Share a little bit about that, if you wouldn’t mind.
Well, actually, my wife produced it, Shelly. And it was written with her godmother and they wanted me to sing on it. And I sang on it.
Yeah. I was scared, nervous, nervous. Why? Well, you know, you’re always nervous when you try new things, you know.
I think I remember Shelly telling me that you don’t like to sing too much, that you’re a little bit shy. A little bit, yes. So how did that one work out for you? It worked out good.
It worked out perfect. And it’s an homage to your brother Maurice, isn’t it? Because he is the Superman that you talk about. Absolutely.
What made him such a Superman? He was the coolest, just really brilliantly talented. Cool of the cool of the cool. Knew what he wanted.
Very focused. Funny, if you knew him. He was a great person.
Had great vision. A great older brother. He was great.
He made the impossible possible. He gave me strength when I was weak. He was my day in the park when I was lost in the dark.
His love helped me to see more than anyone’s understand. For me, he was my Superman. My Superman.
He was really responsible for your music career, isn’t he? Absolutely. And if you had to think about some of the highlights of that fabulous career that you’ve still enjoying, I guess one of them would have had to be the fact that President Obama invited you to perform at the White House for the very first social event of his administration. Right.
Was that a big thrill for you? Absolutely, because he was the first African American president in history, and we were his group. That would have been truly special. What other highlights stand out in your mind? God, I think that’s about it, right? That’s enough, right? That would have been the top one, would it? Yes.
And I guess you’d also be pretty thrilled that over the decades your songs have been covered by so many artists. Absolutely. The songs have definitely stood the test of time.
I can’t imagine that you would have ever thought in the mid-seventies that you’d still be touring and your songs would still be played all over the radio and in people’s homes. Right. Do you have to pinch yourself sometimes that the career’s been as good as it is? Absolutely, absolutely, Sandy.
Absolutely. You never took it for granted and got used to the fact? No, no. So is there anything left, Boudin White, that you still want to accomplish? I’m still working on it.
What about a book? I might. People are starting to talk to me about a book, but we’ll see, we’ll see. Right now you’re just having a good time still, huh? Right.
Boudin, thank you so much for sharing your time with us today. Thank you, Sandy. An absolute pleasure.
Can’t wait to see you here in Australia, and I bet everybody watching this and listening can’t wait to see Earth, Wind & Fire back out on the road again with Lionel Richie. Great. Thank you so much.
I thank you for your time.